Today, you’ll learn about some incredible new surfing technology that makes the sport possible even if you don’t live near the ocean, why the lab-grown meat industry needs to be beefed up to solve food system problems, and how the link between multiple sclerosis and the Epstein-Barr virus is leading to potential treatments for the illusive and damaging MS.
Today, you’ll learn about some incredible new surfing technology that makes the sport possible even if you don’t live near the ocean, why the lab-grown meat industry needs to be beefed up to solve food system problems, and how the link between multiple sclerosis and the Epstein-Barr virus is leading to potential treatments for the illusive and damaging MS.
Turns out you don’t need an ocean to surf.
Fake meat. Yum.
Sharing is caring. Especially when it comes to medical treatments.
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Find episode transcripts here: https://curiosity-daily-4e53644e.simplecast.com/episodes/stoked-tech-weve-got-beef-success-against-ms
TITLE:
STOKED TECH, WE’VE GOT BEEF?, SUCCESS AGAINST M.S.
Follow Curiosity Daily on your favorite podcast app to get smarter with Calli and Nate — for free! Still curious? Get exclusive science shows, nature documentaries, and more real-life entertainment on discovery+! Go to https://discoveryplus.com/curiosity to start your 7-day free trial. discovery+ is currently only available for US subscribers.
NATE: Hi! You’re about to get smarter in just a few minutes with Curiosity Daily from Discovery. Time flies when you’re learnin’ super cool stuff. I’m Nate.
CALLI: And I’m Calli. If you’re dropping in for the first time, welcome to Curiosity, where we aim to blow your mind by helping you to grow your mind. If you’re a loyal listener, welcome back!
NATE: Today, you’ll learn about some incredible new surfing technology that makes the sport possible even if you don’t live near the ocean, why the lab-grown meat industry needs to be beefed up to solve food system problems, and how the link between multiple sclerosis and the Epstein-Barr virus is leading to potential treatments for the illusive and damaging MS.
CALLI: Without further adieu, let’s satisfy some curiosity!
[SFX: Whoosh]
NATE: Calli, have you ever surfed?
CALLI: I haven’t done it much! Surfing is so cool. And of course, I want to. I love the ocean. It’s massive, it’s mysterious. But, also it’s kinda terrifying, really. (Calli, cheeky, because clearly it’s the scared thing:) Also, I live pretty far inland. Yeah, I’m not scared, it’s the far-from-the-ocean thing.
NATE: It’s okay to be scared, Cal. Today, I’m going to tell you about a few new surfing technologies, including some that might help you get over that fear.
CALLI: Not afraid.
NATE: There are a couple new kinds of boards, but first, let’s talk about some wave-making technology.
CALLI: Like, technology that’s making waves because it’s new and impactful? Or, that literally makes waves in the water?
NATE: Both! ... Now, we’ve all been to a wave pool at a waterpark.
CALLI: Yes, we have all thought to ourselves, “this will be relaxing,” and we’ve all been wrong.
NATE: Now, imagine a wave pool so strong you’re not just tossed up and down, but you can actually surf the waves. They break, they curl, they do all the ... surfing wave ... things.
CALLI: Surfing waves. Very scientific. You know, I feel like I’ve already heard of man-made surfing waves. World-class surfer, Kelly Slater, built a facility for pro surfers to practice. Are you talking about that?
NATE: I’m talking about the next ... wave ... of that.
CALLI: Ew.
NATE: Surf Lakes, out of Australia, has built a wave test facility that’s totally unique. A giant pump in the middle of the man-made lake pumps ring-shaped waves over ten times a minute. Now, your average wave pool sends the waves out in one direction. This wave is three-hundred-sixty degrees, fanning out from the center.
CALLI: Like ripples?
NATE: Exactly like ripples! The ring wave is generated by a single, steel, compressed-air pump. It weighs fourteen-hundred tons!
CALLI: That’s the weight of (Calli makes beep boop noises, like she’s calculating) three-hundred-and-fifty elephants! (calculator noise)
NATE: The pump basically lifts itself up and then drops into the water, making giant ripples that break like ocean waves. The pool itself is shaped to turn the one ring wave into smaller waves. It pumps a new wave every six seconds, in four directions, so that’s about twenty-four-hundred waves an hour. And it’s designed to produce waves of different skill levels, so anybody can play.
CALLI: Oh wow, so if there was one by me, I could actually learn on these waves, and I’ll be sure to tell everybody I want to go, but then never do it because I fear I’m not cool enough to be a surfer.
NATE: Wow, that was some real insightful self-reflection! And also, that’s how I think most people feel about surfing! But, while you build up the courage to surf those man-made waves, there’s another way you might be able to find a ride thousands of miles from the ocean.
CALLI: Do tell.
NATE: There’s a new kind of surfboard that you can use to surf on essentially any body of water. Do you know how a foil works?
CALLI: Are we talking about the dramatic arts? Or maybe you mean the aluminum stuff I make hats out of to keep the aliens from stealing my precious thoughts?
NATE: I’m talking about hydrofoils. It’s a kind of technology that’s been around for a long time, just never on surfboards.
CALLI: Oh yeah, I think I’ve seen them on boats. They’re kinda crazy. When the boat speeds up, the whole thing lifts up above the water, except a rod type thing that stays underneath. Looks like the whole boat is floating on air!
NATE: Yes! It’s utilizing the natural lift made when the boat speeds across the water. What you can’t see ... is that at the bottom end of the rod ... are wings. Once it’s lifted up out of the water, there’s way less drag, allowing for higher speeds using less energy. The same goes for hydrofoil surfboards. In some cases the boards receive additional boost from a small electric motor.
CALLI: Sounds like something I’ll see in a Bond movie, with a title like Too Cool to Die.
NATE: Or, From Ocean with Love.
CALLI: Bingo.
NATE: So, do you think you’re gonna hit the waves?
CALLI: Now that it’s clear you can kinda surf anywhere, I can no longer pretend like of course I WOULD surf, and I AM cool, but I live so far away from the ocean, that it just doesn’t make sense. I may not start surfing, but I may have to drop my “aw shucks, if only” routine.
NATE: Yep.
CALLI: Thanks a lot.
NATE: Any time.
[SFX: Whoosh]
CALLI: Nate, when Dr. Seuss wrote Green Eggs and Ham, do you think he could foresee the new “green” meat trend?
NATE: Green meat trend? Like, more sustainable meats? No, Calli, I think he was talking about the color green.
CALLI: I guess! Can we be sure!?
NATE: It’s right there on the page, Cal!
CALLI: Okay, fine. Maybe Sam I Am wasn’t hawking lab-grown meat, but stuff like that is really interesting to me. We definitely need a solution to traditionally farmed meats, between their climate impact, and of course there’s the moral aspect. I’m just not sure these alternative methods will ever be able to meet the demands.
NATE: You mean meat the demands? Nice. You know, to be honest, I’m not even sure what lab-grown meat is.
CALLI: Lab-grown meat, also called cultured or cell-based meat, is like eating meat from an animal, without a live animal. Rather, your burger would start as a small amount of animal cells that was cultivated and grown into meat without all the mess of fur and hooves that come with living creatures.
NATE: That sounds like some Franken-st-ience-fiction.
CALLI: At its core the idea makes sense. Global demand for meat is rising, and meat production is already responsible for 15% of human-caused global warming emission. If we could meet demand, and lower emissions, that’d be a win.
NATE: So…we should be investing to figure out how this process works.
CALLI: Well, we know how it works, and its pitfalls. It's really similar to what we already do for vaccine production. We need cells to infect with a weakened virus, and as pharmaceutical companies grow them, they get a byproduct known as “animal cell slurry.” It's strikingly similar to what Silicon Valley tech companies are hoping to turn into ground beef.
NATE: So the science itself isn’t wrong? It’s possible?
CALLI: Oh, it's not only possible, it's happening. The issue is, while this makes sense for creating vaccines, the numbers just don’t add up to create meaningful amounts of affordable or environmentally friendly food.
NATE: Ok we can get to the hangups, but how on earth do you go about growing meat in the first place?
CALLI: Right. They start with a small amount of living animal cells and add them to a slightly larger container with what they call a nutrient rich “growth medium,” it's kind of like blood…out of the lab. From there the cells reproduce, and they move them to a bigger container, and then a bigger container again. To create an environment that can support cell reproduction, they have to slowly scale up until they get a 12,500 liter batch. From this you can get about 770 kilograms of cultured meat, about as much as a steer weighs with the hoofs and fur.
NATE: And that would be meat?
CALLI: Well, you wouldn't be getting a steak, it would be more like a slurry that would work well for burgers or nuggets. But whereas those natural products are cheap, “growing” meat would be exceedingly expensive.
NATE: No 99 cent cheeseburgers?
CALLI: Analysis shows that the cheapest we could reasonably see these products go with real-world constraints is $17-$23 a pound. When it got to you at the grocery store it’d be about $40 a pound.
NATE: Well, sometimes making the right choice costs money.
CALLI: Sure, but that leaves out a lot of people who do eat meat, but can’t afford those prices. The cost would keep it from making a real global, or even national, difference. And what's more, it probably isn’t even the right choice.
NATE: How's that?
CALLI: Running the labs to grow meat is energy intensive, and unless it is powered entirely on renewable energy, the process is likely to be more carbon-intensive than just raising cattle.
NATE: Well surely scale can help these issues?
CALLI: Growing cells isn’t like building a bigger factory to make cheaper cars. They have to be carefully tended, they can’t be rushed through the process. And although they are living, they don't have an immune system. If even one virus, or a single bacterium gets in, it can kill the entire batch.
NATE: Well, I guess we have to wash our hands pretty carefully then, no sneezing in the meat lab.
CALLI: (laughs) Think pharmaceutical level clean room. And even then, the cells are alive, and growing, so they create their own waste that has to be cleaned out as the slurry grows.
NATE: Right, because we wouldn’t want to eat that.
CALLI: Well, yeah! But also, the waste slows cell growth. The waste is one of the obstacles and needs to be dealt with quickly. Now, scaling this kind of production, while keeping it consistent and clean is a near impossible feat. At every step, there is a technological and biological challenge that makes growing these products affordable and in an environmentally friendly manner nearly impossible. And that's before we even consider taste.
NATE: I love that we have the tech to do it, I just wish it was the solution we needed. I guess we’ll have to move on to other solutions, like those plant based burgers.
CALLI: Your heart is in the right place Nate, but some research is showing those burgers aren’t going to solve our food problems either. Most often they don’t convince meat eaters to go veg, they end up convincing veg eaters to try more carbon-intensive meat alternatives. They might be making the problem…worse.
NATE: So, what is Sam I Am to do?
CALLI: Well if we want to help solve the problem, we don’t need a lab, just a garden. Replacing meat with vegetables and legumes is really our best bet.
NATE: So, we’re better off with greens and beans, no eggs and ham.
CALLI: Now those you could eat in a box, with a fox.
NATE: What are you talking about? Why would I do that?
CALLI: Never mind.
[SFX: Whoosh]
CALLI: Nate, would you like to hear some super exciting medical news about multiple sclerosis?
NATE: I will never answer no to that question! But...what exactly is sclerosis?
CALLI: Sclerosis is just a fancy Greek word for saying your body’s tissues are stiff. The disease itself, more commonly referred to as MS - is an autoimmune disorder with some pretty damaging symptoms.
NATE: Doesn’t it cause nerve issues and problems with brain function?
CALLI: Those are the primary effects. Some aggressive cases can even cause paralysis.
NATE: None of this sounds “super exciting”...
CALLI: What if I told you there was a potential new treatment based on research around the Epstein-Barr virus?
NATE: I would say Epstein-Barr sounds like a comedy duo from the 50s.
CALLI: I don’t think they’d get a ton of applause. Epstein-Barr is a virus that shares some interesting commonalities with MS. So much so that it’s believed to be a sort of “opening act” for MS.
NATE: I’d rather not stay around for the headliner at that show. What kind of similarities do they share?
CALLI: Both affect the central nervous system. MS makes our immune system go haywire and attack our brain and spinal cord. This damages the myelin - a protective layer around our nerve fibers, and disrupts important communication signals to and from the brain. It’s scary stuff. There are four different types of MS based on how aggressive or likely symptoms recur, and most people see slight variations in their experience with it.
NATE: And Epstein-Barr is less severe?
CALLI: In general it is. But it’s also much more common. Like, crazy common! In fact around ninety percent of adults will likely be exposed to the Epstein-Barr virus by age thirty five.
NATE: So Epstein-Barr is on the most expansive worldwide tour ever? Great...
CALLI: Don’t worry, the attendance isn’t very good. Most people won’t see long-term complications from the virus.
NATE: But it can lead to MS?
CALLI: That’s what a pretty big mountain of evidence points to. Multiple studies have shown that nearly every single MS patient also carries Epstein-Barr. But ... the key piece of data is that people who don’t have Epstein-Barr almost never develop MS.
NATE: So whatever Epstein-Barr is doing might just be setting the “stage” for MS.
CALLI: Even more - MS might not be able to go on without it. Epstein-Barr can rest in someone’s body in special immune cells called B cells. When they’re dormant they don’t really do anything, and you’re pretty much fine. But if you have problems with your immune system - these cells might invade your brain and spine.
NATE: Sounds like the exact effect of MS.
CALLI: Exactly! So really Epstein-Barr and MS would be more of a combined show than a one-two act. Brain scans have even shown elevated levels of the Epstein-Barr virus in people with MS. And because we now know that Epstein-Barr is probably what’s leading to MS, if doctors target the virus early and directly - they might be able to stop the progress of MS in the very early stages.
NATE: Now that deserves a standing ovation.
CALLI: The scientists doing the research definitely deserve it. They’ve already seen great results from an immune cell transplant trial. With brain scans even showing a reversal of MS progression.
NATE: Reversal! That’s great. Sounds like the setup for a potential cure...
CALLI: That’s probably quite a ways off. While the initial trial saw unanimously good results, it had a very small sample size and didn’t include a control group. But the scans did show stabilization, and in some cases, improvement of myelin regrowth. Those nerve cells were getting their protective layer back!
NATE: That’s amazing! Now taking these trails to a larger scale is the tour I do want to see.
CALLI: That’s the plan! A second trail with almost triple the sample size is gearing up to start as we speak!
NATE: I just remembered something Calli: - you said there were multiple types of MS, but if the immunotherapy is helping it at the source, it would theoretically help them all right?
CALLI: In theory, yes! The trials right now are only focused on the progressive forms of MS because we don’t currently have any treatments for it. But if the studies keep showing the same improvement results then the same treatment might be able to work as a blanket style of care for the other forms as well.
NATE: Epstein-Barr and MS were an act nobody wanted, but somehow got pretty popular, and now finally maybe they can retire.
CALLI: I wish I had some tomatoes to throw at them. Rotten lettuce maybe.
[SFX: Whoosh]
CALLI: Let’s recap what we learned today to wrap up.New surfing technology makes surfing more and more accessible. Folks who don’t live near the ocean will benefit from hydrofoil boards that you can ride on calm waters, and a new kind of wave pool that allows for novice surfers to try predictable waves.
NATE: While Silicon Valley tech companies are promising that lab-grown meat will let us have our burgers and eat them too, the constraints of energy, production, and scale mean that while possible, they aren’t the red, juicy solution to our very real food system problems.
CALLI: With more evidence mounting that the source of multiple sclerosis could stem from the Epstein-Barr virus, researchers have seen amazing MS recovery results from immune cell transplants targeted at fighting Epstein-Barr. This could be a monumental step in finding strong long-term treatments for the disease.