Wordsmith Lynne Franklin, author of "Getting Others To Do What You Want," explains the psychology of persuasion on this episode of the Curiosity Podcast. As a consultant to executives and teams on persuasive communication, she studies how the brain affects our choices and behavior to help people solve their problems and get what they want. Additional resources discussed: Lynne Franklin Wordsmith "Getting Others To Do What You Want" All You Need to Know About the "Learning Styles" Myth, in Two Minutes | Wired 10 Cognitive Biases That Distort Your Thinking | Verywell Calming Your Brain During Conflict | Harvard Business Review "Just Listen: Discover the Secret to Getting Through to Absolutely Anyone" Follow Curiosity Daily on your favorite podcast app to get smarter withCody Gough andAshley Hamer — for free! Still curious? Get exclusive science shows, nature documentaries, and more real-life entertainment on discovery+! Go to https://discoveryplus.com/curiosity to start your 7-day free trial. discovery+ is currently only available for US subscribers.
Wordsmith Lynne Franklin, author of "Getting Others To Do What You Want," explains the psychology of persuasion on this episode of the Curiosity Podcast. As a consultant to executives and teams on persuasive communication, she studies how the brain affects our choices and behavior to help people solve their problems and get what they want.
Additional resources discussed:
Follow Curiosity Daily on your favorite podcast app to get smarter with Cody Gough and Ashley Hamer — for free! Still curious? Get exclusive science shows, nature documentaries, and more real-life entertainment on discovery+! Go to https://discoveryplus.com/curiosity to start your 7-day free trial. discovery+ is currently only available for US subscribers.
Full episode transcript here: https://curiosity-daily-4e53644e.simplecast.com/episodes/how-to-convince-others-to-do-what-you-want
CODY GOUGH: I'm curious, how do you convince other people to do what you want?
ASHLEY HAMER: If you have to convince people, you have already lost the war.
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CODY GOUGH: Hi, I'm Cody Gough, here with Ashley Hamer, and we are with the award-winning Curiosity.com.
ASHLEY HAMER: This week, we're going to talk about the power of persuasion and answer the age-old question, how do you get someone to listen to you?
CODY GOUGH: Every week, we explore what we don't know because curiosity makes you smarter.
ASHLEY HAMER: This is the Curiosity podcast.
CODY GOUGH: Lynne Franklin is a self-described neuroscience nerd and communication consultant with decades of experience. Science nerd, huh? Sounds familiar.
ASHLEY HAMER: I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about. Anyway, Lynne has worked with executives and teams on persuasive communication. And today, she'll try to make us better at getting what we want.
CODY GOUGH: Trust me, you'll want to stick around for this. The title of your book is Getting Others To Do What You Want. If I want to get somebody to do what I want, what's the first thing I need to know?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: You need to know who they are and why they should care about doing what you want. We as human beings have a tendency to decide what we want people to do, and then go tell them. And they don't care. They have their own agenda.
So how can you present your idea in a way that increases the chances that they'll actually want to do it? And in order to do that, you need to know who they are and what motivates them, and how to reach their brains, and how their brains work.
CODY GOUGH: So you need to understand what they want, and then think about what you want. And then make a little bridge that connects the two and give them that bridge?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: When I do message development for companies, a lot of times, they know what they want to say. And I take them through a process where I say, OK, what is it that people actually want to know about what you do? Answer that question and then answer the question, what do I want to tell them about what I do? And then you see where the two of them intersect because there usually is some common ground.
If there isn't, you got a whole different kind of problem. But how can you present your information in a way that is of interest to them, rather than just pushing information their way? Because most businesses have a tendency-- and frankly, most of us as human beings, have a tendency to hone our message down to this great polished sheen.
And then we shove it out into the world, and we are shocked that nobody's paying any bit of attention to us. And that happens because we're not paying attention to the needs of the people we're trying to reach. You have to put it in a way that's of interest to those people, not just of interest to you. It's the difference between pushing a message out and getting people to pull it toward them.
CODY GOUGH: So is this a business context only, or does this apply to personal relationships?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: It works everywhere. I say all the stuff that I talk about, as far as persuasion goes, works as well at home as it does at the office.
CODY GOUGH: Really? OK. And it's probably easier at home because you generally know the person that you're talking to there.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: One would hope.
CODY GOUGH: One would hope. One would hope. But in a business context, let's say you're starting a brand new job or something, and you don't know these people that you're working with now, where do you start to unpack what they want?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: And what I love to do is talk about how people's brains work and presenting information in a way that appeals to their particular brain. Research shows that-- It's called the VAK model. Visual, auditory, kinesthetic. And this is how our brains work.
So 75% of the people in the world are visual thinkers. That means they process information, their brains literally think in pictures and images. Then 20% of the people in the world are listeners, auditory thinkers. They think in words and sounds. And 5% of the people in the world are kinesthetic thinkers.
They think in feelings and tactically. And how can you tell what the person is, who's sitting across from you, which of those three things? Well, usually, 75% of the people in the world are lookers, so that's usually a good place to start. But you can tell by two things. People's body language and also the language that they use.
ASHLEY HAMER: We hear what she's saying, but the VAK model is actually based on a common misconception. The idea that people's individual brains favor a visual, auditory, or kinesthetic communication or learning style goes back to the 1970s. And even today, you'll find it in books in classrooms all over the world.
The thing is if people have one style their brain works best in, then using that style to learn should make them perform better on tests, but they don't. Not across the board, anyway. Instead, all of the groups in a study tend to perform best with one particular style, based on the nature of the material. You wouldn't teach geometry using only audio, or US history entirely through movement.
In the same way, no matter the style you think your brain works best in-- and studies show that many people prefer one style even if that style doesn't make a difference in their performance-- you probably don't remember phone numbers through touch or play guitar by imagining pictures. That's not to say this way of thinking isn't useful. It helps you remember that people don't all think the same way. So to get through to someone, you need to tailor your message to them and them alone.
CODY GOUGH: Does this scale to things like mass media and comedians or politicians addressing huge crowds of people? Because of course, there's going to be a mix in their audience, right? What is it that is so persuasive about what they're doing on a larger scale?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: There are a couple of things at play here. If we're just talking about how people's brains work, then yes, if you're standing up in front of an audience and know that most of those people are lookers, so use more visual language to pull those people in. But don't forget the auditory language and the kinesthetic language as well because that pulls in the rest of the audience.
There are also-- I'm a neuroscience nerd. I study how the brain works and how to use that information to create connection. And so let me give my quick commercial on persuasion, which is most people have a negative connotation with persuasion. So if I were to say, Cody, what's the dark side of persuasion for you, what are some of the things you would be thinking?
CODY GOUGH: Manipulation, of course, or control.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Control.
CODY GOUGH: Control, things like that. Yeah.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: And so here's my belief about persuasion-- is that you and everybody who's listening to this audio, you have a gift by virtue of your background, your education, your life experience. Even if we sat you down in a room with somebody who did something exactly-- the same exact job that you have, they can't do it in the same exact way because their life has been different.
But what that means is that with this-- which means this is your gift. And with this gift, comes responsibility. So you have to be able to present your gift in a way people can see, hear, and feel it. And increase the chances that they'll get what it is that you have to offer. So persuasion is not about manipulating anybody. It's about knowing what your gift is and knowing how to present it in a way that people can get it, and then make a good choice about the information that you're presenting.
CODY GOUGH: So persuasion is actually about giving other people what they want, and then they're more likely to give you what you want.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Perfect.
CODY GOUGH: But that's the first step in the process, and that's where you kind of draw the line.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: What happens-- So more neuroscience again. There are things in your brain called mirror neurons. As in mirror, mirror on the wall. And what happens is when you are in somebody else's company, there's part of your brain that's looking at what their bodies are doing. And it's prompting you to give them the same kind of body language back.
And this tracks back to the old, old days when we were all in tribes. And the last thing you wanted to do was be really different from everybody else in your tribe because then you might get left behind.
ASHLEY HAMER: Mirror neurons are super interesting. They were first discovered in the early 90s by Italian scientists, who found individual neurons in the brains of macaque monkeys that fired not only when the monkeys, say, grabbed a banana, but also when they watched another monkey do the same thing, or even when they heard another monkey doing that in another room.
Further research found that these mirror neurons don't respond to just any action. Pantomime makes a meaningless gesture or make a random sound, and the neurons don't fire. They seem to only activate in response to actions that have clear goals. That means that if you want to activate someone's mirror neurons with your own actions, you can't really fake it. You've got to mean what you do.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: So part of your brain is looking at the people around you and prompting your body to do similar things. What I'm saying is let that stuff happen. So be aware of how other people's bodies are looking in space, and let your body do similar things. It's not going to change how your brain works.
I will always think in words and sounds, but if I want to build rapport with other people, one of the best ways to do that is to give them the same kind of body language. Because if I were sitting here, leaning back with my arms crossed, and not giving you any eye contact, you wouldn't feel a great connection with me, and you certainly wouldn't want to do anything that I suggest.
And by the way, one other point, your brain thinks in all three ways. Your brain thinks in pictures and images, words, and sounds, and also feelings and touch. But you've got a dominant style, just the way you have a dominant hand. So I say tap into all of that stuff. By using the body language that makes you feel comfortable, it doesn't change how I think and it doesn't make me feel uncomfortable because I'm trying to create connection here. And so what it becomes is a learned behavior. I'm paying attention to you. It's easy for me to do that now because I've been doing it for so many years.
So if you are a listener and you don't like giving people eye contact, and you'd rather be sitting on the fringes, well, number one, know that about yourself. But also, two, know that other people will have a different perception of you because that's not what they expect. The tough thing about all of this, now that you know how your brain works, is that you have a tendency to treat everybody as though they are the same as you.
ASHLEY HAMER: Not only do you have the tendency to treat everybody as if they're the same as you, you also have the tendency to assume everybody thinks like you do. This is called the false consensus effect. Basically, you assume your own values, ideas, and motivations are normal and that most people share them.
This makes sense since you make sense of the world using information you have on hand. And your own thoughts are always on hand. Not to mention the fact that you tend to associate with people who think like you. But when you're persuading people, this can backfire terribly. If you go in assuming you know how the other person is thinking, you're less likely to listen to their point of view. So be aware of your biases, keep your ears open, and hear what they have to say.
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LYNNE FRANKLIN: And well, if you're a looker, at least you hit 75% of the world. The rest of us don't. And so, make the conscious choice of paying attention to how other people's bodies are in space and use that to help create connection there if that's your goal.
CODY GOUGH: How big of a difference did this make once you realized all this and you kind of switched and started to adapt to others?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: I found communication a whole lot easier.
CODY GOUGH: Like immediately?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Pretty much. And here's the big thing. I stopped being really judgmental with people. So once I see somebody coming at me, who's a toucher, who's got her arms wide open and ready to give me this giant bear hug, it's not that she's invading my space, it's that this is how she creates connection. OK, so I don't have to judge her for being that way. That's just who she is. And that, for me, is incredibly freeing. I don't have to make the rest of the world like me and then punish them for not being like me.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah. So those three different ways of thinking, and you adapting to those is a really great first step to starting. How about beyond that? What's the next step towards really becoming a persuasive communicator, beyond slight adjustments in your language and body language?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: One of the most powerful ideas I've come across in all of the years I've been in communication is something called the persuasion cycle, which was created by Dr. Mark Goulston. And he, among other things, does consulting for hostage negotiation for federal agencies. And as he did this kind of work, he started paying attention to the process people went through in order to agree to say yes to something like not kill themselves or you.
And what he noticed was a whole series of steps that he mapped out in the persuasion cycle. And when you were with somebody to know where they are in this cycle is really useful. So let me walk you through it quickly. Everybody begins at the top in resisting. Frankly, because we're biologically set to do that.
Because back in the old, old days when we were in the jungle, our brains had one job, and that job was to keep us alive, which meant they were constantly scanning the horizon for physical and verbal risks and threats, and getting us out of the way. So whenever you're sitting across from somebody, these days, even people who want to agree with you will resist you, because part of their brain is asking, is what this person suggesting going to kill me? Am I going to get in trouble for doing this?
ASHLEY HAMER: The part of the brain responsible for this fight or flight response is called the amygdala. Mark Goulston, the hostage negotiator who created the persuasion cycle, and whose book you can find in our show notes, references a concept in psychology called amygdala hijack to explain what's going on in your brain when you perceive a threat.
That could be anything from a hungry lion to a coworker criticizing your ideas. When that happens, your amygdala releases a flood of chemicals into your body like the stress hormones, adrenaline and cortisol, which can make your heart beat faster and make your breathing more shallow. At the same time, other parts of your brain shut down to give your amygdala the energy to freak out.
That includes the regions responsible for complex decision-making, perspective taking, and memory. Once you're there, you don't have much hope of making a rational decision. The idea is to keep the brain from getting to that point in the first place, whether that's your or the person you're trying to persuade.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: So know that's going on and know people will resist you. And frankly, it's got nothing to do with you. Brains are biologically set to do that, which means that my first job, if I'm trying to be persuasive, is to move you from resisting to listening. And I do that by saying something of interest to you.
So a great example is if you happen to be at a cocktail party or a networking event. Know that the person you're going to walk up to and speak with will resist you because they don't know who you are and if you have any ulterior motive in speaking with them. Got nothing to do with you. So your first job is to say something of interest to that person. And it could be asking a question or it could be giving them a heartfelt compliment, something that shows that you are interested in them.
Oh, and here's one other sidebar tip, neuroscience again. Never introduce yourself to somebody within the first seven seconds of having met them. Have you've ever done this? You've asked somebody their name, and then like one minute later, you can't remember for the life of you what their name is?
CODY GOUGH: Yeah.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Because your brain cannot focus on a new person. It takes seven seconds for your brain to start looking at that person and connecting with that person. So never ask their name until at least seven seconds have gone by. So do a little idle chit-chat first. Let the seven seconds go by. By that point, your brain is focused on them, and then you can ask their name. And then you'll remember it.
You ask those questions, have that little idle chit-chat which also gets your brain to focus on theirs before you ask their names. And obviously, then say their name and look in their faces as you're saying their name. And that will help you remember their names as well. Also, great tip.
ASHLEY HAMER: Another reason we all tend to be so bad with names is because when you're meeting someone new, your brain is attempting to do a lot of things simultaneously. You want to give a good impression, so you focus on smiling and making eye contact, but at the same time, you're facing all this new information-- what their face looks like, what their voice sounds like, how they shake hands. Even worse, you're saying your own name, and probably already coming up with what you'll say next.
Psychologists call this the next in-line effect. When you're simultaneously giving information and taking in information, one of those things will fail. To fix that, take a moment to associate the new person's name with something you already have stored in your memory. So if you meet someone named Cody, maybe picture a bunch of computer code while you look at their face. That could help make an association between your working memory and your more reliable long-term memory.
CODY GOUGH: I know how to make a great impression on someone after you've met them.
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LYNNE FRANKLIN: So say something of interest to them, and frankly, ask them questions and get them to speak. Because what ends up happening is that, number one, you learn more about who they are and what they do, or what's important to them in this conversation. And then that means that whatever you ultimately end up saying back to them, you use the information they have given you as a reference point, so you can say things that are of more interest to them.
So I'm going to speak with an engineer much differently at a cocktail party than I'll speak with an attorney, but first, I've spent the time getting to know who they are. The other great thing about that is that because I've listened first, then what that means is that-- it's called the rule of reciprocity-- they're more interested then in reciprocating. I've listened first. Now, they want to ask me-- they want-- Turnabout's fair play. They want to ask me about me.
So I've built goodwill without really having said anything but just showing that I'm interested in them. Because the idea is to move people from resisting to listening, which is the second step in the persuasion cycle. And you do that by either saying something of interest or showing your interest in them.
And then the job is to move from listening to considering, because, once again, if you have a point of view, and you wish to persuade somebody of something-- now you have more background on them, you've built goodwill-- then when it's time for you to present this idea that you want them to consider, there's already some rapport built there.
Because the idea is, to move people from resisting to listening, you need to say something of interest. And to move them from listening to considering, you have to say something about them, something that they will care about. You need to have a conversation at this point. And then you move people from considering to willing to do.
And usually, you do that by having a further conversation or scheduling a meeting where you dig more deeply into the sorts of things that are going on with them. And presenting your ideas in a way that truly resonates with them. And you move people from considering to willing to do, and then willing to do to doing, and doing to glad they did; and a lot of times, willing to do some more. And the scoop is that a lot of people have-- I bet, Cody, that somewhere along the line, you have experienced buyer's remorse.
CODY GOUGH: Maybe once or twice.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: There you go. Or had a client perhaps you were trying to persuade to do something or somebody else in your life, and you thought they were on board, and then suddenly, they're saying, well, maybe I need to think about this some more, or can you send me some more information about this? Buyer's remorse happens because there's a breakdown between listening and considering.
So the whole idea about the persuasion cycle is to figure out where somebody is on it and meet them there and take them to the next logical step, as opposed to making a quantum leap. So when I started my communications practice 24 years ago, I thought I needed to make cold calls. And my goal was, OK, I'll pick up the phone-- My palms are sweating just thinking about this. I'll pick up the phone and I'll have a 5-minute conversation, and I'll get a new client.
And of course, I stank because now I have a framework for this, I know what I was trying to do is move somebody from resisting to willing to do, and I was skipping all those buy-in steps of listening and considering first. So know where people are. I gave a presentation on this. And I had a guy come up to me afterwards, and he said, now I understand it.
It turned out that he owned a number of cleaning companies. And he was working with Walgreens, and he wanted to take his client out to lunch and ask him if he could clean some additional stores. So he loaded his PowerPoint presentation on his tablet, and he had that with him and they sat down at the table. And he was ready to pull out his tablet. Well, actually did.
And was about to take a deep breath and launch into his-- this is why you ought to give us some more stores. And the client actually took the tablet out of his hand and closed it, and said, Andreas, you already have the job. Let's have lunch. Andreas was treating the client as though he was in resisting, but because he had already had an experience of Andreas' company, he was in willing to do. So you present information in a different way, depending upon where people are.
CODY GOUGH: That's very interesting. I could also-- I mean, this is a very different context than business. I could see this even working in the dating world.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Oh, you bet. It's all about creating connection and building rapport. And you do that pretty much every place in your life except when you're alone.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah. Not a great place to build too much rapport. And it is also funny that-- I read a lot on the internet, and I see the way that people talk to each other about controversial issues like politics. And I don't think that they're even on any of these steps in this cycle. I think everyone's just yelling.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Yeah. You're right. They're busy telling people what to do and what to think. And when your parents said because I said so, you didn't want to do it. Did you?
CODY GOUGH: No, right. Not at all. Yeah. And not to get into politics, but yeah, I see posts all the time on every side of every issue, and you're just yelling something. And no one is going to listen because no matter where people are-- resistance, whatever it is-- they're not going to listen to you.
You really have to have conversations and have some empathy, and meet people in the middle a little bit to really make any progression with any kind of communications. So this is all very, very helpful.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Good, I'm glad.
CODY GOUGH: I do want to end with the Curiosity challenge. And you've taught me a lot about communicating. So I have a random piece of trivia for you. This is something that I read on curiosity.com. And you too can find it on curiosity.com. So every year, the new Marist Institute of Public Opinion releases their poll results for that year's most annoying phrases. For eight consecutive years, one word has been voted the most annoying word in the English language. So here's your question. Based on those polls, what is the most annoying word in the English language?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Well, I don't know that poll, but what I do know is when I hear the word synchronicity, it makes me want to puke.
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CODY GOUGH: I will say that one of my least favorite words is probably paradigm, but neither of us are--
LYNNE FRANKLIN: He's right.
CODY GOUGH: Correct. According to these polls, the most annoying word in the English language is whatever.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Whatever.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, I see. Oh, you're nodding. So you're nodding in violent agreement.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Yeah.
CODY GOUGH: And I believe you brought a piece of trivia for me as well.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Yes, I did. So Cody, if your mind were an office product, what kind of office product would it be?
CODY GOUGH: If my mind were an office product, I want to say a Rolodex. Is that right?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: Tell me why.
CODY GOUGH: I want to say Rolodex because information is sorted into categories just like a Rolodex does, and you can fit lots of different things into those categories. And then you pull out a card, and then there's more information on that thing. So your brain categorizes things in a broader category, and then you can kind of drill down from there. Is that right?
LYNNE FRANKLIN: If that's how your brain works, that's exactly right. No, it's funny because I say the same thing. I say, if my mind were an office product, it would be a Rolodex because it's highly associative. You say something to me, and it's like I flip, flip, flip, flip until I come up with something that matches what it is that you've said, that I make some association with what you've said.
CODY GOUGH: We will post a link in the show notes to Getting Others to Do What You Want. And Lynne Franklin Wordsmith, thanks so much for being on the Curiosity podcast.
LYNNE FRANKLIN: I am so happy to be in a room with somebody who's curious.
CODY GOUGH: You find a lot of us here. Thank you so much.
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ASHLEY HAMER: I know you love learning new things. And I've got one more thing for you to learn in this extra credit question. In 2016, researchers had volunteers ask strangers to complete a brief survey. The strangers were 34 times more likely to complete the survey if the requests were made in one specific way. What was it? The answer, after this.
CODY GOUGH: Do you like surveys? Well, I've got some really good news for you if you do. We want to hear your thoughts on the Curiosity podcast, so we created a super quick and easy survey. Please visit curiosity.com/survery and answer a few questions so we can make our podcast better.
Again that's curiosity.com/survey. It's quick and easy and will really help us bring you better content every week. There's a link in the show notes too, but one more time, that URL is curiosity.com/survey. We really appreciate the help.
ASHLEY HAMER: Explore history's surprising connections with a new podcast, The Thread, with OZY. It's like a cross between revisionist history and six degrees of separation. You'll discover how various historical strands are woven together to create a historic figure, a big idea, or an unthinkable tragedy, like how John Lennon's murder was actually 63 years in the making. Witness how their stories hinge on the past and influence the future. The show is already a chart-topper. Get The Thread with OZY. That's O-Z-Y on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
That 2016 study had 45 volunteers ask 450 people to fill out a survey. Half asked over email, and half asked in person. The strangers who got the request in person were 34 times more likely to fill out the survey than the strangers who were asked over email.
What's more, when the volunteers were asked beforehand to predict how many of their strangers would fill out the survey, both groups thought it would be roughly half. People are way over-confident in the effectiveness of text-based communication. You can read all about this and lots of other cool stuff on curiosity.com.
CODY GOUGH: That's all for this week. Please send us an email at podcast@curiosity.com if you have any questions about anything we talked about today. And feel free to let us know how we're doing.
ASHLEY HAMER: You can also follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at curiosity.com. Feel free to say hi. For the Curiosity podcast, I am Ashley Hamer.
CODY GOUGH: And I'm Cody Cough.
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