Achieving goals can be difficult, but that may be because you're setting the wrong goals in the first place. That's why happiness expert and executive coach Stella Grizont returns to the Curiosity Podcast to discuss how to set the right goals and how to overcome the challenges of sticking to them. Additional resources discussed: The Vision Generator (free worksheet from Stella Grizont) Dopamine Functions | News-Medical.net Dopamine regulates the motivation to act, study shows | ScienceDaily Goal Progress and Happiness | Psychology Today A CONVERSATION WITH Daniel Kahneman; On Profit, Loss and the Mysteries of the Mind | The New York Times Overcoming an Aversion to Loss | The New York Times The Psychology of Sunk Cost | Ohio University WOOPAAH (Stella Grizont is Founder and CEO) @StellaGrizont on Twitter The Surprisingly Recent Time Period when Boys Wore Pink, Girls Wore Blue, and Both Wore Dresses | TodayIFoundOut.com No Girls Allowed | Polygon Follow Curiosity Daily on your favorite podcast app to get smarter withCody Gough andAshley Hamer — for free! Still curious? Get exclusive science shows, nature documentaries, and more real-life entertainment on discovery+! Go to https://discoveryplus.com/curiosity to start your 7-day free trial. discovery+ is currently only available for US subscribers.
Achieving goals can be difficult, but that may be because you're setting the wrong goals in the first place. That's why happiness expert and executive coach Stella Grizont returns to the Curiosity Podcast to discuss how to set the right goals and how to overcome the challenges of sticking to them.
Additional resources discussed:
Follow Curiosity Daily on your favorite podcast app to get smarter with Cody Gough and Ashley Hamer — for free! Still curious? Get exclusive science shows, nature documentaries, and more real-life entertainment on discovery+! Go to https://discoveryplus.com/curiosity to start your 7-day free trial. discovery+ is currently only available for US subscribers.
Full episode transcript here: https://curiosity-daily-4e53644e.simplecast.com/episodes/how-to-set-the-right-goals-and-actually-achieve-them
CODY GOUGH: I'm curious, why is it so hard to reach your goals?
STELLA GRIZONT: People make the same mistakes when it comes to creating goals. And so I wanted to talk about, one, how do you really choose the right goal, and then how do you stick with it? Because there are certain mind traps that just sabotage us, such as chocolate chip cookies tend to do that for me.
[THEME MUSIC]
CODY GOUGH: Hi, I'm Cody Gough with the goal-oriented curiosity.com.
ASHLEY HAMER: And I'm Ashley Hamer. Today, you'll learn how to figure out what you really want.
CODY GOUGH: And how to get it.
ASHLEY HAMER: This is the Curiosity Podcast.
[THEME MUSIC]
CODY GOUGH: Longtime Curiosity podcast listeners will recognize today's guest, happiness expert and executive coach Stella Grizont.
ASHLEY HAMER: She talked about the psychology of happiness in one of our most popular episodes ever. And she's back with new research about setting and achieving goals.
CODY GOUGH: If you've ever tried to lose weight, learn to play an instrument, or get better at basically anything, then this is the podcast for you.
STELLA GRIZONT: So whenever we want to create a change, what I find happens all the time is the stimulus for that change is like there's something in your life you're just not happy about. And so what happens is that we want to move away from that thing we're not happy with.
We don't feel good in our bodies so we want to lose weight. We have a bad relationship, and so we want to either transform that relationship or find a new one. So we're usually compelled by something that doesn't feel good.
And the problem with that is that when we choose our goals based on changing something we don't like, it's not the same as choosing goals towards being something that you do want to be. So let me kind of rephrase that. When we choose goals kind of in opposition of something we want to escape from or move away from or stop and end the dread, so to speak, it's not the same as moving towards the positive.
And so what happens is even if you end up achieving your goal, you're kind of sitting there and you're like, wait, is this all there is? Because I thought I'd feel a lot happier now. And actually, nothing's really changed. And that's because the goal wasn't right.
Let's get specific. So let's say someone's really unhappy with their body and they want to lose 20 pounds. And so they commit to going to the gym three times a week. Let's say best case scenario, which often people fail when they want to lose weight, but let's say you actually do lose the weight. And you realize, you know what, I do fit in my jeans but I'm still kind of feeling the same way. Still kind of feeling lonely, or I'm still kind of feeling just generally like a little empty.
And the reason why is because probably it really wasn't about the weight, it was about you wanting to maybe feel seen or connect with a new romantic partner or just connect with people in general. And it really wasn't about the weight in itself. So the thing when it comes to setting goals is that before you actually start thinking about what you want to do to achieve that goal and you start making your to-do list, you have to kind of stop and backtrack and really do some inner work and ask yourself not what do I need to do, but how do I want to be?
CODY GOUGH: Because you might misdiagnose--
STELLA GRIZONT: Exactly.
CODY GOUGH: --the problem in your life. So how does a person do that?
STELLA GRIZONT: So you want to start by asking how do I want to be. And so actually, I can give everyone a free download worksheet, that's like a fill in the blank exercise. It's called the "vision generator." It's the workhappinessmethod.com/vision, workhappinessmethod.com/vision. And that's where you can just take this worksheet and it will ask you like these simple questions, fill in the blank, and that will help you assess how you want to be.
Because that's ultimately what should be guiding all your decisions, big and small, is how do I want to show up in this world. And the reason why I created a really thorough worksheet is because sometimes we think about one particular area, like how we want to show up at work or with our colleagues. But then we forget, oh, how do I want to show up with my loved ones? Or how do I want to be during my free time? Or how do I want to be physically?
So I basically cover all the bases to help you get really clear on how is it that you want to be. And once you get clear on that, then what's so cool is that the way you can accomplish that vision expands. So if you want to lose-- well, maybe the real goal, like if we go back to our example, was about finding a companion and feeling really connected and seen by someone. So maybe one way to amplify your kind of self-image, you want to lose weight. Great, but maybe another thing you should be focusing on is actually like asking your friends, hey, do you know anyone who is single and available, and would be someone I'd like?
Or maybe it's about reaching out to your friends and just like scheduling coffee, and you haven't seen them in a long time. Or maybe instead of forcing yourself going to the gym, you just drink more green juice and you do more yoga or you sleep more so you're more rested and energized and more radiant. So once you get clear on how you want to be, the way you can be that opens up. And so you have a lot more options.
And this is really freeing because if you feel like you have to escape your situation and make a dramatic change, I love giving people this exercise because technically, you can experience a dramatic shift without any dramatic circumstance shifting in your life. So let's say you're miserable at work, and your boss really sucks, and you're bored out of your mind. Once you figure out how you want to be, you'll recognize all these micro-opportunities throughout your day that you can change your behavior and start to feel more energized and excited about what you do. And the boss hasn't changed and the job hasn't changed. So the very first step when it comes to making any change before you make any lists of goals is to ask yourself, how do I want to be?
CODY GOUGH: So you want to look at outcomes before you look at the goals?
STELLA GRIZONT: The outcomes which I would say are more conditions of being, or a state of being. What happens is when you do this work, so when you do the vision generator, and you get clear on how you want to be, what I do with my clients is I take that a step further and I distill that down into values. And then we take that step further and be like, OK, how can you express this in your day-to-day?
And I have this whole accountability system just to help people remember. Oh yeah, this is how I want to be. But basically, it's really simple. So let's say you want to be more creative. So say, the boss is crappy, the job is boring, and one of your top values is being more creative. Well, then I would challenge you to be like, OK, well, how can you get creative about being creative?
Maybe you don't like working on these reports, but what's a new angle you can put on the reports? Hey, can you change the formatting and make it more fun? Or maybe when you present, you try a new kind of warm up, an icebreaker with the group.
ASHLEY HAMER: If being more creative is one of your goals, here's a tip. Stop working so much. I know, easier said than done but hear me out. We've all had those lightning moments of inspiration while doing something mindless like showering or doing dishes. If you want to think creatively, you need to give your mind time to wander.
A 2012 study found that when people did an undemanding task that let their minds wander, they performed better on a test of creative thinking than people who performed a more demanding task, and even than people who just sat and did nothing. If your daily schedule has your brain firing on all cylinders, you might boost your creativity if you pencil in time for a walk, a simple video game, or even a doodling session.
STELLA GRIZONT: So there's infinite ways for you to start being more how you want to be, and you have to just start trying incrementally. Now, what happens is once you do it and you recognize it-- so that's the other piece-- a lot of times, we're actually living our vision but we don't realize it. So we actually have all the circumstances we need in order to thrive, but we're not appreciating it or recognizing it. And so therefore, it kind of doesn't matter because in our mind's eye, we don't have enough.
The other side of this is once you start being conscious of what those states are that you want to embody more of, and you start even taking micro-steps on how to be more creative, maybe it's like you try a new smoothie recipe. [LAUGHS] Or you add some new color into your wardrobe that you've never worn before.
Once you start realizing, oh I'm actually being more creative. It's almost like you gain a momentum and then you're like, well, where else can I do it? And I'm like oh my god, look, I'm actually being creative all over the place. And then you're like, wait a minute, I kind of love my life. And I know that sounds like a dramatic leap but it happens over time. And then what happens is when you realize there's areas that you aren't feeling are quite right you know what to adjust in order to make them more fulfilling.
So for example, I had a client who one of the things that was important to her was to be a champion for others. She enjoyed advocating for others. And she was really unhappy in her job. And she was resisting speaking to her boss. And I said, well, if it's important for you to champion others, how are you going to be a champion for yourself? And that just kind of was like this face palm moment. I don't know if that's how you describe it, but when your hand hits your forehead and she was just like, oh.
And so that motivated her to have the conversation she was resisting with her boss and then within 24 hours, she got a new project and was no longer crying at her desk every day. So once you start taking conscious action and consciously recognize how you're being, how you want to be, more opportunities open up. Because often, how we want to be is using our strengths. And when we recognize we're using our strengths, there's actually great research that shows that even signs of depression can dissipate, you start to feel really good.
All this goodness emerges. But it's a feedback loop so you have to first be aware then you have to do it, and then you have to recognize that you're doing it. And so that's how you take control. Now, if you have a crappy boss and what I say to people when they come to me and they're ready to quit or go sit on a mountaintop for a month, I'm like, let's just work on you being how you want to be at work. And then see what emerges. And then if we realize, OK, nothing changes, then yeah, go find something else. But the problem like we were saying earlier is if you don't make these shifts, then no matter where you go, there you are, that same stuff might keep popping up for you.
CODY GOUGH: And this applies to relationships and any long-term commitment, too, right? Even family, if you--
STELLA GRIZONT: Oh yeah.
CODY GOUGH: --have issues. Now, you studied applied positive psychology in school. Is there a line between the psychology and the philosophy of this kind of approach to life? And where in your education did you learn that drove home the difference for you?
STELLA GRIZONT: In positive psychology, we talk about flourishing. And this is what we talked about in our previous conversation, we talked about how it's not just about happiness, it's actually about well-being or flourishing, and being happy is just one piece of it.
But if all we cared about was being happy, none of us would become parents or take care of our ailing parents or strive for being a doctor or--
CODY GOUGH: Or work an 80-hour a week--
STELLA GRIZONT: Exactly.
CODY GOUGH: --in a pursuit of something because--
STELLA GRIZONT: Yeah.
CODY GOUGH: --that's not fun.
STELLA GRIZONT: That's not fun. I did not like waking up every three hours during my daughter's first few months of life. I was not happy.
ASHLEY HAMER: To really drive home how complex happiness really is, all you need to do is look at how complex your brain's relationship with dopamine is. You've probably heard dopamine described as the pleasure hormone and that's true. It plays a role in those feelings of euphoria you get when you, say, fall in love, but also plays a role in a lot of other stuff-- memory, behavior, sleep, and attention, for example.
That's because, according to research, dopamine's real magic is in the pursuit of pleasure. Dopamine is a motivation hormone. Studies show that people with higher levels of dopamine are more willing to work hard for rewards. That explains why making progress on a goal feels so good even if the activity itself is unpleasant. What's more, feeling good is associated with greater motivation, which leads to more progress and more good feelings. If there was ever a reason to stop procrastinating, dopamine is it.
CODY GOUGH: But we tell ourselves, at least, that this is in pursuit of a goal that will make us happy, is it not?
STELLA GRIZONT: Yes, and that's where purpose comes in or meaning comes in. That's about benefit-findings. So researchers call it benefit-finding. It's when we're able to take lemons and make lemonade, essentially. And so benefit-finding really helps us be more resilient as human beings. And so that's how I like to look at life.
Now, it's important if you're in a bad situation that you acknowledge your negative emotions. So negative emotions aren't bad, they're just information. And so you need to take that information in. So if you're in a bad relationship or just not a healthy relationship, to embrace those negative emotions and befriend them and ask them, hey what's going on here?
So I think it's important to not push away the negative emotions because if you do, then you may be missing some information. You may need to break up, you may need to go to the doctor, you may need to work harder. We do want to pay attention and we know from research that people who score a 10 out of 10 in terms of optimism, that's not really healthy. That's when you start to deny certain things.
It's good to be in like the seven or eight range of being optimistic, but scoring a 10 out of 10 is probably not healthy. Because if you have a pain in your body and you're just thinking, this will go away, it's nothing, maybe you need go have a doctor take a look at it. Or if you get a negative report at work or negative feedback and you're like, oh, I know it's all going to work out, and you don't take action, and you don't really receive that, oh, there's something wrong here and I need to modify my behavior. Then you might be jeopardizing your work.
CODY GOUGH: Sure. There's also that saying, well, I'm a pessimist, so that way, I'm never disappointed. Is there a significant mental or psychological or emotional impact on a person when they are disappointed that this pursuit of happiness is trying to avoid?
STELLA GRIZONT: Well, we know from research that having an optimistic perspective actually has so many benefits. It you're usually more productive, you're about 30% more productive, you're more creative, you're more likely to have positive feedback from your colleagues and your customers, and you actually live longer. And I can keep going on and on. So there are benefits to being optimistic.
I would say shielding yourself from disappointment, to me it just sounds like you're not living your life fully. You're playing it safe. And if you don't want to be disappointed, again, you might be missing out on some really valuable learnings, like that's how we learn. It's vulnerable to be disappointed, but that's where the beauty lies in our growing and evolving.
CODY GOUGH: That's life, right?
STELLA GRIZONT: That's life. Yeah. So I do think that's important. And some other things that just to kind of talk about that pessimistic perspective, there is a tendency that's called loss aversion. So as human beings, we actually prefer avoiding loss to having a positive outcome. So for example--
CODY GOUGH: This is why it's so hard for me to walk up to a stranger in a bar that I've never met before.
STELLA GRIZONT: Yeah, and it's-- so like for-- behavioral economists actually found this tendency, and they found that we work really hard to avoid loss and we spend so much energy to avoid losing something, and that's why we sometimes tend to stay in bad relationships or bad jobs because it's kind of like the devil is better than the devil you don't.
CODY GOUGH: Sure.
ASHLEY HAMER: The behavioral economist who came up with the idea of loss aversion and who invented the entire field of behavioral economics to boot were Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky. In a 2002 interview with The New York Times, Kahneman recalled that he'd tell his classes, quote, "I'm going to toss a coin, and if it's tails, you lose $10. How much would you have to gain on winning in order for this gamble to be acceptable to you?" end quote.
He said that his students generally wanted more than $20. That is, they wanted their possible gain to be double their possible loss before they'd take the bet. Likewise, you're less likely to walk away from a blackjack table when you've lost a hand than when you've won one. You're more likely to become politically active when a new law threatens your rights than when you stand to gain from it.
The pain of losing something is greater than the joy of gaining something. It's definitely not rational. So how do you get over it? Try what New York Times reporter Carl Richards calls "the overnight test." If you're in a bad job or a bad relationship or just have a closet of old clothes you can't part with, do this.
Imagine you went to bed and overnight someone got rid of that thing. They got you a different job or had your significant other break up with you. The next morning, you could choose to reverse what they did or stick with the new situation. What would you do? If you'd stick with a new situation, then it's probably time to say goodbye in real life.
STELLA GRIZONT: This tendency is actually what keeps us playing small. And that's why I tell people to do the vision generator because it gives you permission to choose how you want to be instead of staying that mindset of avoiding pain or loss.
CODY GOUGH: Sure. And I took a look at the vision generator. I think I did the vision generator--
STELLA GRIZONT: Oh yeah?
CODY GOUGH: --back in the day. And again, we don't have time to cover the specifics of the vision generator on this but it, essentially, is you're writing a vision for where you'd like to be in five years--
STELLA GRIZONT: Yeah.
CODY GOUGH: --but there's lots of tips on how to do that effectively. And there are very specific questions that it outlines for that exercise so it can be very helpful to see those. And it says to give yourself 30 minutes to write that vision. Is this one of the problems you see, is people don't even stop for 30 minutes? Or do you think 30 minutes is enough?
STELLA GRIZONT: That's such a good point. It's so funny how many very successful people I work with who tell me I've actually never stopped to do this kind of work. And it's like 30 minutes. And you know why it's so uncomfortable? Because we're not used to-- in that vision generator, I talk about pretend you're a child in a candy store and you get to choose whatever flavors you want. And there's no consequences, like you just get to choose what you want and how you want to be. That's uncomfortable for many people. In fact, sometimes I have people who get angry at me.
CODY GOUGH: Wow.
STELLA GRIZONT: Yeah. And then it's funny because I had someone in my program and she was like, I got angry at you, Stella. And I'm like, what do you think that was about? And she realized, as a child, her father was always telling her to be realistic. And that whenever she would share an exciting dream she had, he'd always tell her how it wasn't possible. And how she had to choose something that was safer.
And so this opportunity to just put on paper how she really wanted to be was a little uncomfortable for her. It wasn't in her nature. Now, for some people, I have so many people who are like this was a, hi, I'm so energized, I'm so excited, I can't stop thinking about it. So it really just depends on your relationship with possibility.
CODY GOUGH: I can relate to this, and to go back to this analogy, I would find it very frustrating to have to pick just one flavor. In my early 20s, I used to think to myself, boy, I would go to a jazz band concert and think I want to be a really good saxophonist. And then go see some, I don't know, pro wrestling event or Cirque Du Soleil and think, wow, I wish I could do like a bunch of flips. But what ends up happening is in my early 20s, very impressionable and I'd see 20 or 30 different really cool things and think, wow, I wish I could do all of those things and be all of those things.
But there is a limit. There's a finite amount of what we can accomplish in our lifetimes and the level of expertise we can reach. You can't practice the saxophone for nine hours a day while working a full time job and learning 18 other things. So how does a person prioritize and how does a person decide which flavor if they can only pick one? Because I don't even know if I want a strawberry or chocolate.
STELLA GRIZONT: So first of all, I give you permission to just lay it all out there. So what happens is our brain will produce images. So being a saxophonist or being in Cirque Du Soleil. Those things that you just identified, I would ask you to write those down. And then what we do is we investigate what's the underlying sensation or what are the qualities of being a circus performer or a musician that is really kind of energizing about those experiences.
And look at where you are now. You're on a podcast, you're on the radio, you're performing, you're in the public. So you actually, there's qualities of both of those experiences that you're living right now. And that's what I was saying. Once you get clear on how you want to be, there's multiple ways to express that. And so to narrow it down, which is your concern, is, first, you want to get clear on the sensation. It's not about being the saxophonist. It's about maybe performance or being around creative people or improv, being creative on the spot.
So first, we get clear on those things. And then I ask people when we're coaching together is to identify the top 10 or 15 themes they noticed and their vision. And then what we start to do is we distill that down. And then I ask them some more questions about, OK, so if you were to rank what's most important in how you want to show up, let's say if you wanted to talk about, OK, so what should I do for a living? Then we would start to prioritize what's most important. Is it about performing? Is it about being creative? Is it about working in a team with people? Is it about flexibility?
And so we would start to prioritize those things. That's kind of I call it inner discovery work. And then you do outer discovery. So then you go out into the world and then you start asking questions and you start asking, well, what kind of opportunities would match up with these conditions that are very important to me? Those are your values, essentially. So once you distill it down, those are your values.
Your values are the guiding principles that keep you moving towards your vision. When you have that list, that distilled refine list of how you want to be, that should then be your guidepost for when you're interviewing. If you're exploring different jobs or opportunities or careers, that should be how you think about, well, is this opportunity going to enable me to perform? Is this opportunity going to enable me to be creative? Is this an opportunity where I'm going to spend a lot of time alone or working with others? That's how you want to go about exploring things.
CODY GOUGH: And so when you're thinking about somebody who has a particular educational background or they're in a particular profession and they look around and they say, I can't get a full time job doing this, then it's just about finding something that fulfills those similar needs and hopefully finding employment there.
STELLA GRIZONT: Exactly. Like so many times, people come to me and they're like, I could do this or I could do that. And I'm like, actually, it's not A or B, there's probably a C. S You're not seeing it right now because you're not thinking about it. You're not thinking about it in the right way. And so there's actually more possibility available to if you think about what are the conditions for how I want to be. And then there's so many more options.
CODY GOUGH: That was gold right there.
STELLA GRIZONT: Thank you.
CODY GOUGH: [LAUGHS] I mean, like that really resonated, especially with finding those themes because I do think that people can be overwhelmed easily, especially in their early adult lives by the wealth of options. Even in college when you go off to school, there's how many majors, especially if you go to a major university. Even within the sciences, I want to be a biologist or a chemist or anything in between, or I want to get into pharmacy or medicine. Do I want to be a cardiologist? Or do I want to be a radiologist?
So there's always all these little decisions and it's daunting because I think it's difficult for people to feel like they can change once they've committed to one.
STELLA GRIZONT: Oh, so that leads us to another great mind trap that keeps us a little small sometimes and that's called the endowment effect. The endowment effect is it's a behavior like once we own something, or we're in a situation, we tend to value it more than before we owned it. And so I think what you said is just so perfect, a perfect description.
It's like once-- let's say we're dating someone, like going back to that example, have you ever been in a relationship where you start dating someone you're like, I really don't like this person, but I'll just go out to the movies with them. And then like three months later, you're still in a relationship with them. And you knew before even your first date that you weren't really that into them. And now, you start to prefer them but it doesn't mean that they're the right one.
And they did a really cool experiment with students and they offered students a coffee mug and a chocolate bar. And overwhelmingly, all the students preferred the chocolate bar. But the researchers said, we're going to give you this coffee mug. And so the students held on to the coffee mug, and then a little bit later, the researcher said, you know what, we're going to trade you. You guys wanted the chocolate here. Here's the chocolate, give us the mug back. How about-- do you want to do that? And then overwhelmingly, everyone wanted to keep the coffee mug even though in the beginning, they preferred the chocolate.
CODY GOUGH: Wow.
STELLA GRIZONT: So it's like once we're in something, we start to give it more value than we would have before we were in it.
ASHLEY HAMER: Another element that plays a role in, say, dating someone you didn't like in the first place is what's known as the sunk-cost fallacy. It's basically when loss aversion turns from a fear into a behavior. Your fear of loss is so great that you'll do weird things to avoid it. Ever felt like not going to a concert but gone anyway because you already bought the tickets? Ever finished a book you hated because you were already on chapter 6? Ever kept at a degree or a job or a relationship you didn't really like just because of all the time you'd already invested? That's the sunk-cost fallacy in action.
The key to avoiding this quirk of psychology is to put more value in your present and future happiness than what's already in the past. If going to that concert, finishing that degree, or hearing your freeloader boyfriend read one more stupid poem isn't making you happy, stop. Don't do it. Cut your losses and find something that does bring you joy.
STELLA GRIZONT: And that's why you want to be really careful. And that's why I always tell people, please do the vision generator first or let's talk before you make any big decisions because once you're in it, that's just the way our mind works. We start to just prefer where we are and what we own, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's better.
CODY GOUGH: I just want to wrap up with our usual Curiosity Challenge. So you brought a question outside of your realm of expertise to perhaps teach me something just totally, totally random.
STELLA GRIZONT: Totally random. OK, I'm going to ask you this. What is the largest organism in the world?
CODY GOUGH: Largest organism, a elephant. [TONGUE CLICKS]
STELLA GRIZONT: Not an elephant. And not a Redwood tree which was my guest before.
CODY GOUGH: Ah, right, trees.
STELLA GRIZONT: Not any of those things. It's actually fungus. So fungus can actually grow over 2 miles long. And a particular type called honey fungus measures over 2.4 miles across the Blue Mountain regions in Oregon.
CODY GOUGH: What?
STELLA GRIZONT: And it produces these really great tasting mushrooms but it's this huge network of mycelium. And I totally-- I hope you guys do something about this on curiosity.com because I want to learn more. But mycelium, the fungus that grows underneath the forest, is actually kind of like the forests internet. It actually helps different plants communicate with one another about resources and you guys have to do something on this because it's so fascinating. And I don't know all the facts, but it's just really cool.
And I know that you guys on Curiosity did something about how fungus can actually decompose plastic. But there's-- I mean, it's just bonkers what fungus can do. So I thought that was a cool fact.
CODY GOUGH: Wow, that is a very cool fact. I always am interested to hear what our guests are curious about. So yeah, thank you for that. And we will look into that, I guarantee you that. Well, I've got a question for you, and maybe I will teach you something as well. And I understand that you are a coffee drinker.
STELLA GRIZONT: Yeah.
CODY GOUGH: As many of us are. So according to an October 2017 review, there was an umbrella review that combined a lot of meta-analyzes to give a high-level summary of lots of different health outcomes associated with coffee consumption. What is the healthiest number of cups of coffee to drink per day? And this is a range. It's a range between two different amounts of cups of coffee, just because different studies use different cup sizes and brew strengths, so it would be something like two to three, four to five, eight to 10. So that is your question. What's the healthiest number of cups of coffee to drink per day?
STELLA GRIZONT: Two to three.
CODY GOUGH: You are very close. It is three to four.
STELLA GRIZONT: Oh, man.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, very close. Three or four cups a day. And not only did the review conclude that that won't hurt you if you drink that much or more, but a daily coffee habit of three or four cups is associated with lower risk of heart disease and death from any cause. And some of the other perks of drinking coffee include association with a lower risk of developing type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, gallstones, renal stones, gout, some types of cancer, Parkinson's disease, depression, Alzheimer's, and it has an especially big effect when it comes to lowering the risk of liver cancer and liver disease.
STELLA GRIZONT: Oh my god, amazing.
CODY GOUGH: [LAUGHS] Yeah. Yeah.
STELLA GRIZONT: I don't know how I would function on 4 cups a day but--
CODY GOUGH: You drink more than that?
STELLA GRIZONT: No, I drink one.
CODY GOUGH: Oh.
STELLA GRIZONT: So I feel like I'd be too jittery.
CODY GOUGH: Well, you can feel free to step it up a little bit. I'm usually a two-cup a day guy, but now that I've read this, I may enhance that to three.
STELLA GRIZONT: Wow.
CODY GOUGH: We'll see.
STELLA GRIZONT: Well, that makes me feel better about my coffee drinking, so thank you.
CODY GOUGH: Of course. [LAUGHS] That's what we're here for and you can read about that and anything else you're curious about on curiosity.com. Stella Grizont, executive coach and happiness expert, thank you so much for coming back on the Curiosity podcast. I really appreciate it.
STELLA GRIZONT: My pleasure.
[THEME MUSIC]
ASHLEY HAMER: Time to test your curiosity knowledge with today's extra credit question. This one comes from Shreya Jana who writes, why is blue associated with boys and pink with girls? Stay tuned for the answer.
[THEME MUSIC]
CODY GOUGH: Hey, so Ashley and I are doing videos now, too.
ASHLEY HAMER: It's so exciting.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, you can catch us on Facebook Watch. You can go to facebook.com/watchfor, you can find us on the Curiosity Facebook page as well.
ASHLEY HAMER: And we're posting all of our videos on curiosity.com as well.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, so follow curiosity.com on social media or download the Curiosity app for Android or iOS, which is free, by the way. And you can see our videos there if you're not on Facebook.
ASHLEY HAMER: I hope seeing our faces doesn't shock you too much.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah. [LAUGHS] Yes. [LAUGHS] I'm just going to leave it at that.
ASHLEY HAMER: Ready for the extra credit answer? Shreya Jana asked why we associate blue with boys and pink with girls. Short answer, literally no reason. As recently as 1918, the general rule was to dress girls in blue and boys in pink. Since as one trade magazine said, "pink is a stronger color and blue is more delicate and dainty." And before that, pretty much all small children wore the same thing, a white dress since it was easy to bleach and easy to change diapers in.
But after World War II, retailers started advertising blue clothes for boys and pink clothes for girls. There isn't a clear reason for this, but it probably just comes down to what marketers thought consumers would buy. Thanks for your question, Shreya. If you have a question you'd like us to answer on the podcast, send it in along with your name and location to podcast@curiosity.com.
CODY GOUGH: In the vein of that extra credit answer, I'd also like to reference a Polygon article called No Girls Allowed that talks about the history of marketing in the video game industry and how video games became such a male-dominated industry. It's a really, really interesting read about the power of marketing, which as you've said, really has a lot of impact on the way everything is perceived.
ASHLEY HAMER: That sounds super cool. I'm going to read that.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah. So visit Polygon. We'll put that in the show notes. It's polygon.com, and the article is called No Girls Allowed. Great way to wrap up the episode.
ASHLEY HAMER: Perfect.
CODY GOUGH: Anyway, this is the end of the episode, and I'm Cody Gough, and we'll see you next time.
ASHLEY HAMER: I'm Ashley Hamer. Thanks for listening.
[THEME MUSIC]
SPEAKER: On the Westwood One Podcast Network.