Learn about how to choose the right cooking method for different cuts of meat; how to figure out the perfect temperature for your meat; pro tips for searing and tempering; and the best way to capture that juicy flavor, including the science of what’s actually happening to those juices while you’re cooking. Please support today’s sponsor, ButcherBox! Visit https://www.butcherbox.com/curiosity In this special sponsored episode of Curiosity Daily, Cody Gough and Ashley Hamer talk to ButcherBox Head Chef Yankel Polak about the science of cooking meat. Learn more about ButcherBox: Meat University by ButcherBox — https://www.butcherboxuniversity.com/home Recipes from ButcherBox — https://justcook.butcherbox.com/recipes/ Subscribe to ButcherBox on YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/getbutcherboxbeef Follow @ChefYankel on Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/ChefYankel/ Download the FREE 5-star Curiosity app for Android and iOS athttps://curiosity.im/podcast-app. And Amazon smart speaker users: you can listen to our podcast as part of your Amazon Alexa Flash Briefing — just click “enable” here:https://curiosity.im/podcast-flash-briefing.
Learn about how to choose the right cooking method for different cuts of meat; how to figure out the perfect temperature for your meat; pro tips for searing and tempering; and the best way to capture that juicy flavor, including the science of what’s actually happening to those juices while you’re cooking.
Please support today’s sponsor, ButcherBox! Visit https://www.butcherbox.com/curiosity
In this special sponsored episode of Curiosity Daily, Cody Gough and Ashley Hamer talk to ButcherBox Head Chef Yankel Polak about the science of cooking meat. Learn more about ButcherBox:
Download the FREE 5-star Curiosity app for Android and iOS at https://curiosity.im/podcast-app. And Amazon smart speaker users: you can listen to our podcast as part of your Amazon Alexa Flash Briefing — just click “enable” here: https://curiosity.im/podcast-flash-briefing.
Find episode transcript here: https://curiosity-daily-4e53644e.simplecast.com/episodes/the-science-of-cooking-meat-with-butcherbox-head-chef-yankel-polak-special-episode
CODY GOUGH: Hi. I'm Cody Gough with a special sponsored podcast episode from curiosity.com.
ASHLEY HAMER: And I'm Ashley Hamer. Today, you'll learn about the science of cooking meat to help you make every cut of meat you have taste absolutely delicious. And don't worry. If you don't really know how to cook meat, then we'll make sure you walk away with the knowledge to get started.
CODY GOUGH: This episode is sponsored by ButcherBox. And you'll learn about how to choose the right cooking method for different cuts of meat, how to figure out the perfect temperature for your meat, pro tips for searing and tempering, and the best way to capture that juicy flavor, including the science of what's actually happening to those juices while you're cooking.
ASHLEY HAMER: Our guest is BucherBox head chef Yankel Polak, who cooks on camera at the ButcherBox test kitchen and teaches a free online course for cooking meat at butcherboxuniversity.com.
CODY GOUGH: We asked Chef Yankel where he starts with his education. If someone doesn't really know how to cook meat, then what comes first? Let's satisfy some curiosity.
YANKEL POLAK: So yeah. There's a huge learning curve, but you can get over it pretty quickly. There's basically two concepts that I like to start with. The first one is going to be what is that particular cut of meat as far as where it comes from on the animal? Because that's going to be your first clue in terms of what to do with it. That breaks down into more used muscles, less used muscles.
The other side of it is then going to be choosing the right cooking method for your cut of meat. So you've got choosing your cut of meat based on where it comes from, and then choosing the right cooking method for that particular cut of meat. And once you put the two together, if you have a general sense of like this is where a New York strip comes from, the loin. Loin is a pretty not used muscle as far as locomotion goes. It kind of just sits there. That means it's going to be tender.
If it's tender, that's going to take me to a high heat, quick cooking method because I don't need to super-tenderize it. It's already there. So you kind of have to give yourself a little bit of an education in terms of where do these particular cuts come from. It can get really confusing because if you go to the grocery store, two different grocery stores are going to have two different names for what could look like the exact same kind of meat, which drove me crazy early on in terms of naming our cuts because the beef industry has so many different names.
Most of them are not consumer-facing. So very like straightforward. You wouldn't want to sell a piece of meat using the butcher's name for it necessarily. And it doesn't give you a clue as to what you should do with it.
CODY GOUGH: Really? What are some examples of meats that you might find with a couple of different names at different stores?
YANKEL POLAK: So you would have a beef shoulder roast. You could have, which could also technically be a chuck roast, which could also technically be a variation of the chuck roast or of the shoulder roast, such as clod roast or seven bone roast. And all of those are referring to almost the same muscle, if not the same muscle group. And all of them can be cooked exactly the same way.
ASHLEY HAMER: Yankel told us that he uses a primal system to break down which meat is what to make it easier for you to figure out where the meat is coming from.
YANKEL POLAK: So primals are kind of these large cuts that with cattle, for example, they'd be broken down into. You would start with you've got your chuck primal. And you've got your sirloin. You've got your loin. You've got your round or rump. And then you've got brisket and a couple of other areas. And then from each of those, you break them down into subprimal and then into smaller cuts, where eventually, you're going to get a steak or a roast.
So the primals themselves are good indicators in terms of what you should do as far as cooking goes. Anywhere there's locomotion, so shoulder or back legs, it's a well used muscle. And the well used muscle means a lot of connective tissue, high collagen, and what that means is you need to treat it a certain way for it to be tender. And that's basically your starting point. So as soon as you know what that cut is, where it comes from, you're going to be you're going to be able to choose the right cooking method. Then it comes down to executing that cooking method properly.
ASHLEY HAMER: On that note, I think that cooking methods can get really intimidating because it feels like there are a lot of rules for cooking meat. But I know a lot of those rules are really myths about stuff like whether or not you should rest the steak after you cook it, whether or not you should sear it. Do you have any favorite myths about cooking meat?
YANKEL POLAK: Myth number one is that searing locks in juices. Big, old myth.
CODY GOUGH: Really?
YANKEL POLAK: Yeah. So searing does a lot of things. Locking in juices, not so much. And we'll take it to resting in just a moment. So when it comes to searing, the first thing that happens is what we want to do is produce what's known as the Maillard reaction. So the Maillard reaction is this nearly unheard of, I guess unless you're a professional cook, and even in that case, maybe not.
It's a reaction when you've got sugar or reducing sugars, very simple sugars, and amino acids or proteins reacting under high heat. And what happens is when they come together under a particular temperature, they reproduce flavor molecules and aroma molecules. So the difference between a raw piece of meat and a cooked piece of meat on a molecular level is you're actually going to create the flavor, and the color, and the smell that makes it appealing. So when you sear, that's what you're doing. You're searing, and then you're basically creating the flavor on the spot.
As far as juices getting locked in, what actually happens is the water, basically the juice in the meat, rushes towards heat. So when we put it on a grill, we put it in a pan, we're actually pulling juices away from the center. So the resting process is to soften, to reabsorb the juices that have ran towards the heat. And basically what you're looking for is that super juicy bite, which will come from giving it that resting time.
So I like to break down like the rules for cooking meat into sort of a few simple steps that if you don't skip them, and you kind of follow them, you're generally going to be all right. It's generally going to taste pretty good. So the first one would always be searing. And searing is just a direct heat method. You're looking for a high heat. And that can come from pan sear. That can come from putting something on a grill. Putting something under a broiler.
Anywhere that you are getting the protein very close to a heat source, a direct heat source, is going to give you that browning, and then therefore that flavor, and that color, and that texture. After that, it comes down to having a good meat thermometer and knowing whether you are done when you're done with the high heat, or whether it needs to cook it low heat for collagen and connective tissue breakdown, like a braise, for example. If you're going to do a brisket, it needs a tremendous amount of low temperature time to give you that really tender consistency.
And for me, that really just comes down to a good meat thermometer. So everyone wants the cookie cutter how do I cook steak perfectly. Just tell me like step one, step two, the exact amount of time, et cetera. That's possible if every piece of meat is exactly the same. But I feel like the more you know about what's happening, the more you're going to be able to work with any kind of meat.
So a simple steak, for example. Let's take your classic strip steak, maybe an inch thick, a few inches long. So you're going to sear it on both sides. 2 to 3 minutes is about how long it'll take to give you a nice, brown surface. One thing I like to do is pat dry steaks first because what we want to do is we want to initiate the Maillard reaction as quickly as possible, so that we don't end up overcooking the steak over time.
And any kind of surface moisture will evaporate, but it'll first boil at 212 degrees. So as long as we're at 212 or below because of moisture, we're not getting to Maillard, which happens at around 280. After that, it's how much time it's going to take for that internal temperature to get where your preference is.
When it comes to grass-fed, grass-finished beef, I tend to go a little bit lower on the scale. So for me, rare starts around 110 degrees to 120. And then at every 10-degree increment, you'll have your next temperature. So medium rare would be 120 to 130. Medium would be 130 to 140. And it'll be a little bit warmer inside the steak. The color will change a little bit. There'll be a difference in the protein fiber because more moisture will escape the higher the temperature goes.
ASHLEY HAMER: You mentioned grass-fed beef. What's the difference in the actual meat consistency between grass-fed and conventional?
YANKEL POLAK: One of the big differences is fat content. And that's particularly because on a grass-fed diet, cattle are going to gain fat a little bit more slowly. It's just a lower fat, lower protein, lower energy diet. Because of that, fat really acts as an insulator for the proteins. So proteins contain a large amount of water. When you have fat, they basically allow the protein to cook without the water evaporating as quickly.
So what that means in terms of cooking is once you reach the temperature point where the moisture is going to evaporate more quickly, the less fat, the faster the evaporation. And then the faster your chances of overcooking. So when it comes to cooking a grass-fed, grass-finished steak, some cattle that have only grass in their diet, you're still going to have nice fat presentation. You're still going to have the same tenderness as anything else. But what you aren't going to have is that additional insulation that will come from a grain or a corn diet.
And because of that, once you hit 100 degrees or so and rising, you can have almost a 30% faster cook rate. And that means that if you turn around for a minute, you come back. Your medium rare steak is now medium well. So that's kind of the key where that thermometer comes into play. And it takes a little bit of practice to really lock it down, but that's the thing to look out for.
CODY GOUGH: I have a question about the temperatures. I'm guessing you as an expert, experienced chef don't maybe use the thermometer every single time you cook. Or do you? And like what I would imagine is that you kind of get used to it, and you, after having some experience, have ways of maybe eyeballing the temperatures or having an idea of let's say when something is let's say done. Are there rules of thumb that you're able to share or do you recommend? I mean, certainly, if someone is starting out, probably recommend using a thermometer. But at what point do you kind of cross that bridge?
YANKEL POLAK: Right. When I started working on hotlines in restaurants, I was a grill cook. I crushed it. I cooked so many burgers at the same time, it was ridiculous. I worked in restaurants next to Fenway Park. And it was just meat, meat, meat all day long. I could eyeball the temperature on a burger from 10 feet away. I could tell you exact internal temperature. And that was purely based on the size difference between the raw burger going on, and how much moisture each lost, and the amount of time it spent on the grill.
So I learned to temp meat more by eyeball and touch than by thermometer initially. Now when it comes to texture, so you can actually sort of feel the textures, the varying textures on your hand. If you were to feel where the fat on the inside of your palm next to your thumb is. You're going to go from higher up on closer to your finger, where it's pretty tender. And as you move down, it's going to get a little bit firmer, a little bit firmer, a little bit firmer.
So that's kind of what you're looking for. The looser it is, the lower the internal temperature is going to be. And the firmer it gets, the more it's cooked. A medium rare will always have this kind of springiness to it, where you can press, and it's soft. But then it'll kind of come back. And that's a good starting point. If it's really soft, it probably needs more time. Once you start to get firm, you're in the like medium to mid well range, and you're probably good to go.
So it's a little bit of the eyeball. Like has it shrunken? Yes. Then I'm well on my way. Does it have a little bit of give? It's probably a good place to take the temperature. I always recommend having a thermometer. But if you want to learn, try and guess first. Touch it, guess the internal temperature. Then check it.
One more thing about temperature, which is crucial. Meat has this thing called carryover cooking. It's going to continue to cook for 5, sometimes 10 minutes, sometimes longer if it's a really large piece of meat, after you take it off the heat source. So people always ask me, like I'm roasting meat. You recommend 8 minutes on a steak. It's going to be cold in 8 minutes. But the fact is the internal temperature is actually continuing to rise.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah. And that's why chefs recommend not taking a burger right off the grill and then pressing it down because isn't that squeezing extra juices out of it?
YANKEL POLAK: Yes, don't do that. Let the juices reabsorb. I've yelled at many a cook for like they're trying to hurry a medium well burger because they forgot to put it on the grill, and smash it down with a spatula, and there go all the juices. You really want to keep everything in there intact. And sometimes, that just means having a little bit of patience, letting it cook a little bit longer.
One thing I really like to do, this is a little bit advanced, but it's something that you can try at home. It's a combination of the reverse sear method. Have you heard of that?
CODY GOUGH: No.
YANKEL POLAK: OK. So the reverse sear method is I'm going to cook the steak to nearly the temperature I want it very slowly at a low temperature. And then at the end, I'll add that crust. That's kind of also the concept of tempering. So if I had a nice, big, thick ribeye, and I want to really tenderize that fat and have it be that melt in your mouth consistency, I'm going to actually cook it very slowly at a low temperature for a long time. Eventually, it'll hit rare to medium rare. And then I may let it rest first. And then I'll give it a nice, hard sear on a hot grill or in a hot pan.
And you can do that at home in your oven. You can throw a stake in the oven at the lowest temperature setting, 175 or so. And it'll take about 25 minutes, and you'll have a perfect medium rare steak. At which point, throw it in your cast iron pan, get a quick sear, and you're done.
CODY GOUGH: I was surprised to hear you say that you look at the exterior of a cut of meat to check how well done it is because I've always heard you make a cut into it. You always make that little cut and then see what color, let's say, the meat is. Like if it's really red, it's probably not as cooked.
YANKEL POLAK: So two things there. Number one, don't cut into it unless you're ready to eat it, unless it's rested for a long time. Because you're basically chopping those protein fibers, and they're just going to bleed. You're going to lose all that moisture. You want each fiber to be able to retain or get that moisture back before you cut into it.
So looking at the external surface, it's more of a size thing, right? If an 8-ounce burger, for example, starts at 3 inches in diameter, it'll lose 10% to 20% of its size as the moisture evaporates. To me, that says it's its medium already because that means that it's reached a certain temperature where that moisture can evaporate. So the inside has to be hot enough.
As far as the color on the inside of meat, again, that's the result of what's happening to the moisture as it leaves the protein fibers. Where you're going to go from bright, bright red, to a slightly pinker, to pinker, to gray eventually. Although you can have a really well done steak, at least it's well-done in temperature, and it's still going to be nice and pink in the center if you cook it properly, which is plus or minus for some.
CODY GOUGH: And I know ButcherBox also sells fish, like salmon let's say. Is there a difference in knowing when that's done because like salmon's always squishy, right?
YANKEL POLAK: No. So it's kind of interesting that you say that because really, the secret test is what the raw meat or protein feels like is going to tell you how to cook it the firmer. The meat is when it's raw, the slower you want to cook it. And therefore, the softer it'll get. The softer the meat is when it's raw. The hotter and faster you want to cook it and the firmer it's going to get.
Salmon starts out pretty soft. As you cook it, it will firm up. With ButcherBox salmon, it's wild caught Alaskan salmon, which means it is pretty lean. It has a little bit of nice, wild fat in it. But it cooks really, really quickly. I cook salmon the other night. I did it skin side down in the cast iron pan. It was searing there for about a minute. I added some garlic to the pan, some scallions, a splash of sake, a little cube of butter. And I had it skin side down the whole time. After about 2 and 1/2, 3 minutes, I flipped it over for maybe 30 seconds, and it was done. It really cooks that fast.
It sounds complicated, but there's really no deep technique to it. Put the protein in the pan. Let a little crust build up. You get to play around with the temperature till you're comfortable. But you generally want to go on a higher heat versus a lower heat because the actual cold temperature of the meat may drop the pan down a bit. So you want to compensate for that. And once you have a crust, flip it back and forth. You can put it in the oven for a little bit and just kind of like feel it. It'll tell you.
CODY GOUGH: We talked about the different cuts of meat on different parts of the animal. How about the bone in factor? The flavor that comes from the bone. Is that a thing?
YANKEL POLAK: Yes. So what I love about bone in cuts is there's a little bit of fat that's always around the bone. You're always going to get a little bit of fat and a little bit of connective tissue. And that browns up so beautifully. It's not going to necessarily add flavor to the cut itself, but it will add aroma, which is a third of the experience at least, right?
CODY GOUGH: Yeah.
YANKEL POLAK: So bone comes into play if you're dry aging. Sometimes, enzyme from the marrow will help tenderize the meat over time. But other than that, it really is the aroma and then the spectacle factor. Nothing better than chewing on a grilled bone that came off a ribeye that's all charred up and crusty. The best thing ever.
CODY GOUGH: Great advice. Can people find your recipes anywhere, on the ButcherBox website maybe?
YANKEL POLAK: Absolutely. So on the ButcherBox website, there's a recipe tab. You get a ton of recipes there along with cooking advice. And then on our YouTube channel are lots of cooking videos, method videos. There might even be a Mythbusters video there. I don't know. I think I made one a while ago. There's definitely five rules for cooking meat that's for sure. Yeah. Visit the website for all sorts of information.
CODY GOUGH: Thanks for joining us. We really appreciate it. And we will talk to you soon I'm sure.
YANKEL POLAK: It was my pleasure. Thank you guys so much for having me.
ASHLEY HAMER: Thanks for listening to this special episode of Curiosity Daily, sponsored by ButcherBox. Again, you can find chef henkel's free online cooking course at butcherboxuniversity.com.
CODY GOUGH: ButcherBox makes it easy to get high quality, humanely raised meat. And if your mouth is watering as much as ours are, then you're in luck because ButcherBox is offering a special deal just for Curiosity Daily listeners.
ASHLEY HAMER: To see what that deal is, just visit butcherbox.com/curiosity. Or enter promo code Curiosity at checkout.
CODY GOUGH: One more time. That's butcherbox.com/curiosity, or enter promo code Curiosity at checkout. And join us again tomorrow for a brand new episode of the award-winning Curiosity Daily to learn something new in just a few minutes. I'm Cody Gough.
ASHLEY HAMER: And I'm Ashley Hamer. Stay curious.
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