If you want to be comfortable in any situation, then you just need to know and remember how to behave. Manners and etiquette aren't just for snobs! Etiquette expert Jihan Murray-Smith joins the Curiosity Podcast this week to explain the guidelines behind proper etiquette in any situation. Whether you're at a family dinner, business lunch, or first date, you'll want to listen so you can act with confidence in any social situation. As founder of the etiquette and public speaking consulting firm Tea & Crumpets, Jihan Murray-Smith has been facilitating workshops on college campuses, high schools, elementary schools for 15 years. To learn more about this topic and many others, check out Curiosity.com, download our 5-star iOS or Android app, and join the conversation on Facebook and Twitter. Subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play Music, and everywhere else podcasts are found so you don't miss an episode! Additional resources discussed: Tea & Crumpets Chicago: Etiquette, Public Speaking & Job-Readiness Renaissance Table Etiquette and the Origins of Manners Would you give up your seat for a pregnant woman? Put a Fork in It (Slate) The Effects of Mere Exposure on Liking for Edible Substances Follow Curiosity Daily on your favorite podcast app to get smarter withCody Gough andAshley Hamer — for free! Still curious? Get exclusive science shows, nature documentaries, and more real-life entertainment on discovery+! Go to https://discoveryplus.com/curiosity to start your 7-day free trial. discovery+ is currently only available for US subscribers.
If you want to be comfortable in any situation, then you just need to know and remember how to behave. Manners and etiquette aren't just for snobs! Etiquette expert Jihan Murray-Smith joins the Curiosity Podcast this week to explain the guidelines behind proper etiquette in any situation. Whether you're at a family dinner, business lunch, or first date, you'll want to listen so you can act with confidence in any social situation.
As founder of the etiquette and public speaking consulting firm Tea & Crumpets, Jihan Murray-Smith has been facilitating workshops on college campuses, high schools, elementary schools for 15 years. To learn more about this topic and many others, check out Curiosity.com, download our 5-star iOS or Android app, and join the conversation on Facebook and Twitter. Subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play Music, and everywhere else podcasts are found so you don't miss an episode!
Additional resources discussed:
Follow Curiosity Daily on your favorite podcast app to get smarter with Cody Gough and Ashley Hamer — for free! Still curious? Get exclusive science shows, nature documentaries, and more real-life entertainment on discovery+! Go to https://discoveryplus.com/curiosity to start your 7-day free trial. discovery+ is currently only available for US subscribers.
Full episode transcript here: https://curiosity-daily-4e53644e.simplecast.com/episodes/why-politeness-and-etiquette-matter
CODY GOUGH: I'm curious. Why is etiquette so important?
MURRAY SMITH: So it's really for people who want to be able to feel comfortable in any environment. And that's what it's about. You want to be comfortable. It's not learning these rules to be an elitist or a snob. It has nothing to do with that. It's about being able to go into any and every setting and knowing that I know the basic rules, and I'm going to be comfortable, and I'm going to make people around me feel comfortable.
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CODY GOUGH: Hi, I'm Cody Gough.
ASHLEY HAMER: And I'm Ashley Hamer with the award winning curiosity.com.
CODY GOUGH: Today, we're going to explore the world of etiquette.
ASHLEY HAMER: Every week, we explore what we don't know because Curiosity makes you smarter.
CODY GOUGH: This is the Curiosity Podcast.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
It turns out that proper etiquette is not just for snobs. Knowing what's cool and what's not cool in a social situation can make life a lot easier. And that's according to an etiquette expert who has been explaining this stuff for more than a decade. Even if you think all the rules, you might be curious to find out how exercising better etiquette can make the world a better place.
I'm here with Jihan Murray Smith, the owner of Tea and Crumpets Chicago. And, Jihan, you're an etiquette expert. I think it was really important what you said about understanding etiquette is about making us feel comfortable--
MURRAY SMITH: Comfortable.
CODY GOUGH: --in situations.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, my gosh. We could just watch the news now and see why it's so important because the lack of etiquette and civility that we see daily when we leave our homes-- well, honestly, our society has changed drastically. Think about how busy our schedules are.
I mean, you and I just getting together we're like, oh my gosh. I'm getting married. I'm planning a wedding. I'm running around. I'm doing so many different things.
And so when we think about how families are really not spending a great deal of time because Kelly has soccer practice. Brandon has baseball. And so families aren't sitting down at their dining room tables every day at the exact same time at 6:00 PM as I did and many of us did growing up.
And those basic skills of being able to have a conversation, a decent conversation with a human being over a meal, setting the table, all of those nice little things that generally our parents or grandparents would teach us-- oftentimes, I find that families are so busy and don't have those special moments to teach their children those skills that they end up not learning them.
CODY GOUGH: There's more, I guess, economic implication to this too, right? Because you don't just work with families trying to communicate with themselves.
MURRAY SMITH: No, exactly.
CODY GOUGH: Where else does this apply?
MURRAY SMITH: You know what? Honestly, even though my main demographic would be children, I have worked with so many adult clients because they find themselves uncomfortable in situations that they are in because of their new role at work. Whether it's they need to do a little bit more public speaking because of their position or they find themselves being invited to a lot of luncheons and dinners, and they have no clue of which glass to use or which fork to use and feel embarrassed. Or maybe I shouldn't touch anything while I'm here because I'm not sure of what to do.
And so it's really for people who want to be able to feel comfortable in any setting. It's about knowing the foundation of what's expected of me, entering into this new environment. And I'm going to be comfortable. And I'm going to make people around me feel comfortable because when you know the rules and someone else doesn't, it's not your place to make other people feel uncomfortable or bad for not knowing them.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, we've talked on this podcast before about dating etiquette--
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, ho-ho.
CODY GOUGH: --and now there are-- what are the rules.
MURRAY SMITH: I know. The world is so different now.
CODY GOUGH: Does anybody even know?
MURRAY SMITH: [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: Who invented all this etiquette stuff anyway?
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, goodness. Of course, one name that I'm sure we will all know is Emily Post is kind of like that poster person for rules of etiquette, wrote books. I mean, I have all of her books that my grandmother collected and clippings from different newspaper articles of etiquette questions from back in the '50s.
Oh, I'm hosting a dinner party. Whose home should I seat-- you know, all of these little rules that people want to know. But honestly, I think, it's been going on since man has been created. I mean, there are certain norms that each culture has. And it's, I guess, the elders, so to speak, responsibility to pass them on to the next generation.
ASHLEY HAMER: As far as modern table manners go, Western culture has the Renaissance to thank. As the Black Plague died out in the late 15th century, population swelled, bringing with them a bigger middle class but also violence and other bad behavior. Manners became popular as a way to reinforce social order and separate the upper classes from everyone else.
Although today we tend to associate etiquette with women, the first generation of miss manners was entirely male. In the 1500s, for example, Dutch theologian Erasmus of Rotterdam warned against that timeless party foul known as double dipping writing, quote, "It is boorish to re dip half eaten bread into the soup."
In 1558, the Italian poet Giovanni della Casa wrote that you should never comb your hair or wash your hands in front of guests unless you're sitting down to eat, quote, "For then it should be done in full sight of others, even if you do not need to wash them at all. For that whoever dips into the same bowl as you will be certain of your cleanliness." That's because people ate with their hands. Forks didn't come into vogue until the 17th century thanks to Italian high society.
Another piece of etiquette that's more modern than you'd think, polite dinner conversation. Since unmarried women were rarely invited to dine with the men, male dinner guests of even the most distinguished classes felt free to discuss any subject they wanted from dirty jokes to sexual conquests. In modern times, Emily Post is credited with simplifying what were often overly stuffy table manners.
When she published her first book on etiquette in 1922, most books on the subject clung to that Renaissance era assumption that manners were for the rich. But Post's advice was directed at ordinary people. Her basic rule of etiquette just as Jihna said, make the other person comfortable.
MURRAY SMITH: And again, because of our society, especially here in America, fast paced we want everything to happen now, instantaneous. Now, what our young people doing and adults? We're constantly texting.
We're glued to our iPhones. We're glued to our laptops, pads MacBooks, whatever, some type of a device. And so those rules of etiquette are always slowly kind of being tossed out of the window because we're not creating spaces for us to really engage with one another.
CODY GOUGH: One could argue that, let's say, there's a family and the parents go out to dinner with their kids. They're on their phones. Their kids are on their phones. And the parents are fine with that. And the parents don't see a problem with that. But not every situation those parents or those kids are going to be in is going to be a situation where that's acceptable.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, absolutely.
CODY GOUGH: Sure.
MURRAY SMITH: I mean, think about going to lunch with a couple of colleagues. And the goal of the lunch meeting is for them to get to know each other and to discuss or brainstorm ideas, for example. And if you pull out your cell phone, really that reads as the person that I'm talking to on my phone is more important than you. And you're right in front of me. [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: I have I felt that way.
MURRAY SMITH: Because I have felt that way. Even with my own friends, there have been so many times where we go out to dinner or lunch hang out, and I look up and everyone's on their phone. Whether they're posting pictures of what-- and it's like, oh, my gosh. We're not talking to each other.
We could have ordered takeout or had something delivered and just talk to each other on our cell phones and eating at home. So it's kind of removing the joy in the whole purpose of these moments of breaking bread at the table by distracting ourselves with these devices.
CODY GOUGH: You've been doing this for 15 years. Smartphones maybe the last decade or so is when they really became big. What were the big challenges before that?
MURRAY SMITH: I would say people did not have the distractions of different technology things like cell phones. However, they may not have known what was considered a proper table conversation. OK. So different topics to avoid.
Of course, now we're talking, so that's not the issue. People are having conversations. But, OK, do I need to know-- if this is my first time meeting you, do I need to know your whole life story? Do I need to know that someone's ill? Do I need to know that you just had a huge falling out with your boyfriend or girlfriend?
So, I mean, appropriate table conversation. [LAUGHS] Or I know you all talked about dating recently. There are all these little rules-- who pays? Or--
CODY GOUGH: Who does pay?
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, gosh who ever asks. The person out.
CODY GOUGH: Is that the current accepted--
MURRAY SMITH: Even when it's something platonic. If you're going out with friends, if I invite you to lunch, Cody, I'm supposed to pay because I've asked you.
CODY GOUGH: Got it.
MURRAY SMITH: Now, I mean that's like a general rule of thumb. However, depending on the place that I might choose, what if it's some super expensive place and we both are excited about trying it, then we need to have the conversation in advance if I want us to go Dutch, meaning you pay for your food. I pay for mine. There's nothing wrong with that, but that needs to be said beforehand.
CODY GOUGH: How do you approach that conversation?
MURRAY SMITH: Well, I think, it can just be said very casually. In matter of factly, just kind of like so. You want to go Dutch? I've been dying to try this place. Now, that may not really work on the dating front but definitely with friends or colleagues for sure.
CODY GOUGH: I'm just curious about this because that seems to be the etiquette that is the fastest moving into what's acceptable and not acceptable.
MURRAY SMITH: I know.
CODY GOUGH: When you mentioned what's OK to talk about and not talk about, I feel like since the 2016 election, everyone feels like their politics need to be made-- not only can be discussed, but it's like a prerequisite [INAUDIBLE]--
MURRAY SMITH: And friends and family members are falling out having huge fights and aren't talking to each other because of this. A lot of people we like to think especially as adults that we're super mature, and we can really calmly articulate our political views in a very intelligent way without being emotional.
I'm sorry. We can't. I can't. You can't. It's very difficult to speak about issues that hit us so personally without infusing some type of great emotion into them where-- to the point where people are crying, arguing, yelling.
You're wrong. I'm right. I can't believe you think this way. So really unless you're with a group of people over dinner or lunch or whatever who are extremely mature, they're like professors, look at things in a very general way, I would recommend that people try to avoid those conversations.
CODY GOUGH: So it's not that etiquette has changed. It's just that more people are ignoring it?
MURRAY SMITH: Yes, more people are ignoring-- for example, we both live in the Windy City, major city. There are so many different ways to get around our lovely city, like public transportation. So sometimes I might hop on a bus to come downtown from my neighborhood.
And it's interesting because we'll see all walks of life, all ages ride the bus and ride the train, right? And so think about it. The way I was raised-- and it's also an etiquette, a rule of etiquette-- if I were to see a senior gentleman say this guy is in his 70s or 80s-- and I'm sorry for you listeners who might be, that's not old. Of course, it isn't.
But say if I see a gentleman in his 80s. I am not in my 80s. Although, I could be tired. Yes, I've worked a long day and all of that. But I feel that this gentleman should have a seat. And it's my job to say, sir, would you like to have a seat and offer my seat. But in today's world, oh, people do not care. I'm tired too is the attitude.
CODY GOUGH: Wow.
MURRAY SMITH: Or you see a woman who's expecting. No, she does not have an illness or anything crazy like that. She's just carrying a little baby inside of her, but I might want to ask her if she wants to have a seat because she could be super exhausted because she's not just carrying herself. She has another person with her.
CODY GOUGH: For sure.
MURRAY SMITH: You know--
ASHLEY HAMER: Seriously, folks, give up your seat for pregnant women. Not only is pregnancy tiring and uncomfortable, but there are scientific reasons why it's super dangerous to make a pregnant woman stand on a moving bus or train. First off, as her belly grows, her center of gravity changes. That makes it harder for her to balance on her own two feet.
Also, little known fact, in preparation for giving birth, a pregnant woman's joints get looser and more elastic. Both of those things increase a pregnant woman's chance of falling when she's forced to stand on public transit. Give up your seat.
MURRAY SMITH: It's just about being thoughtful. Etiquette is just going back to a place where we're thinking about other people's needs and not focusing on ourselves. And in our culture, we are selfish. We're constantly thinking about our own needs and desires. And to me, when I think of etiquette, it's not just about all of these rules that need to be followed. It's about caring for other people, making them feel comfortable.
CODY GOUGH: Sure. I want to talk in a second about a couple, other kinds of etiquette that maybe don't at first glance fit into that category as easily. But first, I want to just mention the pregnancy thing that you talked about. So let's say I'm on the bus. Pregnancy can also be a touchy issue with--
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, don't ask.
CODY GOUGH: I mean, I'm not going to-- exactly. I am never in my life going to walk up to anyone and say, oh, are you pregnant or are you expecting? I mean--
MURRAY SMITH: No.
CODY GOUGH: --that's not OK. So if I'm on the bus and someone enters the bus and I think they might be pregnant, do you just give them the benefit of the doubt?
MURRAY SMITH: Sure, I would just-- you don't have to mention anything about a person's physical condition. You could just say, would you like to have a seat? They don't know if you're just being polite or if it's just because she's a woman and you're a man.
I mean, the person doesn't have to know why you're offering the seat. They just might be thinking you're just super nice and kind that day. So, yeah, you never ever want to assume anything like that. You want to reserve-- unless you're offering a compliment.
Oh, I like your hairstyle. Your haircut is lovely. Or that's a lovely scarf, a beautiful suit. I would avoid making comments on a person's appearance unless you're offering a really general compliment about something that they're wearing or a fragrance. Oh, that's a lovely fragrance that you're wearing, that you have. So, yeah, I would avoid comments on bellies and--
CODY GOUGH: Well, the pregnancy thing is interesting to me because one of my really close friends actually just had a baby about a month ago. And she would make some Facebook posts occasionally about comments people are making to her. And even if the comment was positive-- she was waiting for the train one day and a guy walked by and said something like, God bless your baby.
And she was like nine months pregnant. She was clearly showing. Yeah, and she might have even been wearing some kind of maternity clothing. They gave it away. But he said something like that and walked by. And she was bothered by that.
And I was like, well, that's a positive sentiment, though. But what she said was, if we were having a conversation and we were talking about something and he said something positive, that's one thing. But to just walk by someone and make a comment, it's almost like a cat call--
MURRAY SMITH: Really?
CODY GOUGH: --to her. Now, I don't know if this is universal, but she just thought that it's not necessarily an appropriate comment on her status as a pregnant woman if there's really no context or no rapport.
MURRAY SMITH: Well, that's interesting. Well, you know what? It makes me think-- and it's not the exact same situation-- but it makes me think of dog owners. And I'm a dog owner myself. When people don't even acknowledge me, they don't look at me, they don't speak, but then they look at my dog and go, oh, hi, puppy, you're so cute. Excuse me. I mean, and that's fine. You can make a comment about my cute dog.
CODY GOUGH: Sure.
MURRAY SMITH: But I just find it weird that I'm a human being. You're a human being. Wouldn't it be nice to acknowledge the person standing right in front of you before you make a comment about their dog or their baby?
CODY GOUGH: Yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: And so I've heard mothers-- it's similar but different-- I've heard mothers-- I'm not a mom myself yet, but I've heard women say, oh, gosh. Once you're a parent, it's so annoying because people don't even acknowledge you. They go, how's the baby? Or look at how cute the baby is. And that makes that person, that individual feel badly. Like, I'm here.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: I exist. And so I would say I see what your friend is saying absolutely. She felt, OK, that was kind of odd. We didn't have a conversation.
I know it's a natural-- usually, a natural emotion just to feel extreme excitement and joy for a person when they are expecting a baby because it is exciting. However, putting the mind frame of like an expectant mother, I would probably think, well, I'm right here too. You could have said at least hello, congratulations, then God bless your baby.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah. Now that makes sense. It's, again, goes back to the--
MURRAY SMITH: Acknowledge people, the people who are right in front of you.
CODY GOUGH: And it goes back to that fundamental that you talked about. Etiquette is about making other people feel comfortable.
MURRAY SMITH: Yes.
CODY GOUGH: And if you just walk by and you say how's this or how's that and it's not addressing or acknowledging that person as a human being, that's no good.
MURRAY SMITH: Exactly.
CODY GOUGH: So now I want to get into some of the pieces of etiquette that may seem a little less obvious, such as table manners.
MURRAY SMITH: Yes.
CODY GOUGH: So if you've got-- I will never forget this scene from the Titanic.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, I have your way. Work your way out and absolutely.
CODY GOUGH: Literally, that's how I have known where to start eating with forks for my entire life.
MURRAY SMITH: That's Titanic scene for sure, yes.
CODY GOUGH: Yes, and for the listener that doesn't know what we're talking about, Kate Winslet is with Leonardo DiCaprio. He's a lower class person. And he is at a nice dinner table. There's all these forks and pieces of silverware, and he doesn't know where to start. And she leans over and says, start on the outside, work your way in.
MURRAY SMITH: Yes.
CODY GOUGH: In that particular case, which fork I pick up first isn't about making me comfortable about somebody else comfortable. So what's the purpose of that kind of etiquette?
MURRAY SMITH: Honestly, some rules are really practical. And so there's a staff who has set this table up. There is going to be a process as to how the servers are going to serve the guests, the way they go around the table.
I mean, there's a system behind everything. And so your fork will always be on the left because generally people when they cut will put their fork in their left hand and their knife in their right even if they're right handed. Now, they may switch to eat. But generally when people cut their fish, their steak, their asparagus even though you can eat asparagus with your finger, you can-- you generally put the fork in your left hand.
ASHLEY HAMER: This is where American and European customs differ. In Europe, you put your fork in your left hand and your knife in your right regardless of whether you're cutting food or eating it. In the US, you do what Emily Post called the zigzag. You put your fork in your left hand to cut your food. Then you put your knife down. And you put your fork in your right hand to eat.
Europeans might turn up their nose at this now. But the zigzag actually originated in 18th century France. It's just that by the time it came over to America, Europeans had already moved on to the much more convenient no switch style. America just never got the memo.
MURRAY SMITH: Your glass, wine glass, water glass, coffee cup will always be on your right. And so when I teach kids this, I always have them hold up their hands. And you can only make the letter B with your left hand and a D with your right.
And so your bread plate will always be on the left. Your drink, every beverage that you'll have, will be on the right. And again, you work your way out in because if you pick up someone else's utensil, which isn't a big deal, but it will throw everything off. And so that person will probably to the left or the right of you will need to ask the server for a fresh or new fork or knife. So it just kind of throws everything off. [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: So there is some practicality.
MURRAY SMITH: It's a practical thing. It's not about, oh, that's rude. It's nothing like that. It's literally about this is how the table is set. This is the flow of the table. If you pay attention to servers, like if you attend a banquet like a formal luncheon, it's almost like a choreographed dance.
The way in which the servers-- they plate from one side, and then they clear the table from another side. They pour water on this side. And so there's a method to the madness. And then there are lots of different signals to servers. So, for example, if you'd like to excuse yourself to go to the men's room or to the ladies room, you will place your napkin on your seat. That is a signal to the server that you're returning.
However, if you place your napkin to the left of the plate-- and, of course, this is always just in a formal situation. They may not know this at Olive Garden. This is when you're going to a nice fancy luncheon or a dinner. If you place it to the left of your plate, that means, OK, I'm finished with my meal.
CODY GOUGH: And then they'll take your plate.
MURRAY SMITH: And they'll take your plate.
CODY GOUGH: And there's etiquette related to drinks too if in a bar, right? If you leave a particular drink and maybe you put a coaster on it, that means you're coming back. But if you leave part of a drink at the bar, they'll probably take it.
MURRAY SMITH: They'll take it away. Or depending on where you are, the coffee cup or tea cup will be preset or already be on the table. But if you leave it flipped where the top of the cup is face down like on the saucer, that means you don't want coffee.
CODY GOUGH: Right.
MURRAY SMITH: And if you flip it back up like you want to consume coffee, they'll know to pour coffee or tea for you.
CODY GOUGH: Wow. So this is really helpful for servers and for keeping things efficient and all that.
MURRAY SMITH: Exactly.
CODY GOUGH: So it is about thinking about other people.
MURRAY SMITH: Yeah--
CODY GOUGH: Who knew?
MURRAY SMITH: --absolutely. Oh, and then if ever you see forks or spoons above the plate at the top, that is for your dessert. So I know people go, what is all of this, right? So generally, all of the silverware to the sides. Salad fork, entree forks, soup spoon, dinner knife.
You might have something for sea food. I mean, there's a fork for everything. However, if you see any silverware at the top of the plate, that is for your dessert.
CODY GOUGH: And servers have their own etiquette they need to follow too probably to make their lives easier, right? At a very nice restaurant, they're supposed to ask the female what she wants to order first--
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, yes.
CODY GOUGH: --if it's a couple maybe. If it's a family, then it would be the mother first and then the father. That kind of a thing.
MURRAY SMITH: Exactly. And I always encourage for those of you who are listening who are parents to allow your children to order food for themselves because that is teaching them some very important skills for, one, they have their own voice. They should be independent. And they're learning how to communicate nicely in a respectful manner to a person who is serving them.
And that these people are not to be looked down upon. They're working. This is a job just like we all go to work every day. It's a job. It's a career for them. And these people are earning money to provide for themselves, and they're human beings so they need to be spoken to as such.
I cannot stand when I see adults speak down to servers, give me this, give me that, barking orders. No, may I please have a lemonade. Thank you. It takes nothing to be polite.
And so when children are out dining with us as adults, they're watching us and how we communicate with people who are helping us. Driver, the Uber driver, the person who-- you may have a housekeeper, the way you communicate with that person, the person who is providing us with our food, whether it's at McDonald's or at a steakhouse. How are we communicating with them?
And so when I'm with my little nieces and nephews or my godchildren, when we go out to lunch or to dinner, I say, OK, what would you like? OK, tell them because you have your own voice. I'm not going to be there with you all the time, so you need to learn how to speak up for yourself and be polite while you're doing it.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, I think, a huge problem that I see all the time with all generations is just treating certain people like a function or like the help, like, even if you get to the checkout at the grocery store and you just don't make eye contact or say anything to the cashier-- that's a cashier.
That's a human being that's scanning your items and then asking you how much you owe and things. And I have recently begun a-- whether I'm checking out whatever store it is, I'll just say, how is your day going? And they always respond very positively.
MURRAY SMITH: Yes.
CODY GOUGH: No cashier or checkout person anywhere at any fast food place or coffee shop or grocery store has ever scoffed at that question--
MURRAY SMITH: Exactly.
CODY GOUGH: --or then unenthusiastically.
MURRAY SMITH: And they usually go, thank you for asking.
CODY GOUGH: Yes, because a lot of times people aren't. And the same with-- you mentioned the rideshare apps, like Uber and Lyft and even taxis, when I get in, I make a point to say, hey, how's your day going?
MURRAY SMITH: Just those little things. How are you doing? Eye contact. We are all glued. I was just telling a group of students earlier we're all glued to our different devices to actually look someone in the eye and smile and say good morning. I mean, that will make someone's day.
ASHLEY HAMER: Jonathan Pritchard, a past guest of the Curiosity Podcast and author of the book Think Like A Mind Reader, has a pretty cool approach for how to treat the cashiers and bus drivers you encounter every day. In video games, you've got the main characters, the ones you and other players control. And then you've got the preprogrammed characters that basically act as background decoration.
Their entire existence generally consists of walking back and forth and saying the same line of dialogue over and over again. Those are called non-player characters or NPCs for short. As Pritchard writes, quote, "You're the hero of your own real life adventure.
Most of the people you meet are essentially NPCs to you. You share a limited conversation. You stick to safe conversation topics like the weather. You treat them like NPCs. Very few people you meet will ever break through to the level of adventure buddy.
The trick then is to remind yourself that they're not NPCs. They are experiencing an I just like you are. They're living their own adventure that's just as rich and meaningful as yours," end quote. You can hear more from Jonathan Pritchard on the Curiosity Podcast episode entitled communicate like a mind reader. Hey, Cody, you know what else is a polite thing to do?
CODY GOUGH: Giving a compliment to when somebody has a nice well-designed room?
ASHLEY HAMER: Yes. And to help you do that, we have a special offer from our sponsor Havenly, the best online interior design solution.
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ASHLEY HAMER: They also have a design quickie feature that allows anyone to chat with the designer for free to get advice on any design related question.
CODY GOUGH: Right, one more time, visit havenly.com/curiosity, enter a promo code "curiosity," and boom $50 off the full design package.
ASHLEY HAMER: But you get the compliments for free.
CODY GOUGH: It's such an easy thing. It's such an easy fix to just be more aware of other people. How do you teach people how to do that? Because you work with a lot of different people, children adults. What's the switch that you need to flip to get people to start really acknowledging others?
MURRAY SMITH: Well, I try to put it into perspective to see how they would feel if they were being ignored. Because no one ever wants to feel left out. No one wants to feel like they're invisible. And so the way I teach a lot of my workshops is through-- we do a lot of role playing.
And so I'll have a few students to act like they're in a restaurant and one kid is the server. One person is the host at the host stand. A couple of people are the diners. And we do different scenarios.
And when we step back, and especially the scenario when the person is being rude, they have to laugh and go, I can't believe people behave this way. Like, I cannot believe that people behave this way.
Or I ask them. This week I really want you to be observant. And when we get together next week, I want you to tell me every rude thing that you saw. And they have of course a million stories to share. Oh, my gosh. This person got on the bus and was so mean to the bus driver.
Or I saw someone bark orders to the rideshare driver, or the table next to us-- we went-- my parents and I went to a restaurant and the table right next to us they were so rude to the server because they messed up the order. And it wasn't even the server's fault. The kitchen messed it up, but they didn't care.
And so once they-- once you ask people to really reflect on their day and think about all of the interactions that they were in and interactions that they observed, everyone can spot out rude behavior. And then you ask them, how do you really think it made that person feel? These are people who are providing these services.
CODY GOUGH: Let's say, you go into another country. How do you if you're traveling maybe research or understand where you're coming from?
MURRAY SMITH: So my advice to my students who are traveling abroad or even if it's domestic-- like down South, the culture there is so much different from up here in Chicago or other parts of the Midwest or North. For example, in the South, people generally offer so much hospitality. And it's considered rude to not accept whatever's being offered to drink or to eat.
That is like, what? You could just say, oh, I just had lunch. No, ma'am. No, thank you. OK, I'll make you a plate. Because that's their way of showing love, welcoming you into their home and to their business by offering you something.
ASHLEY HAMER: Have you ever wondered why the American South is known for hospitality? That goes back to before the Civil War. In the 1800s, waves of immigration led to huge population booms in the North. That led to many different types of people swarming into urban areas where everyone kept to their own social groups. But the South was very different.
At the start of the Civil War, the North had 10 million more residents than the South. Sparsely populated farm towns dotted the Southern countryside. And living in the middle of nowhere meant that you had to keep close personal ties to survive. Close ties, which usually led to close living quarters, also meant that your reputation and honor were important in order to keep the peace.
The need to keep an honorable reputation combined with a rivalry with Northerners who were considered cold and impersonal led Southerners to feel duty bound to show hospitality to anyone who appeared at their doorstep.
MURRAY SMITH: So whenever you go to a new place, a new city, a new country, all you have to do-- there's no excuse now because we all have access to the internet-- and I just recommend that you just do a basic Google search of customs of China or the customs in Paris to know, OK, do they tip here? What is the standard tip to pay the taxi driver, the hair stylist? The services that you will need while you're there.
Or ask the concierge at the hotel if you're staying at a hotel. Or if you're staying with a family because I know people do that-- they stay with-- I've done that. I've stayed with families that I didn't know in other countries. And you ask them, what are the norms here?
I even encourage that when you're right here in your very own city and you're going to a restaurant, I always encourage people to look the restaurant's website up, see if there's a dress code. Because, in fact, there are some restaurants who do not allow men in without jackets, or they don't want men to wear hats. Women have to be in a certain attire.
So I always encourage people if you are looking to have a different dining experience, go for it. That is so much fun. It's exciting but just be prepared. You just always want to be prepared. And you can look that up easily.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, there's a lot of the-- some more advanced stuff like when you order a bottle of wine at a nice restaurant. And then they pour a little bit and then they give it to one person. You're supposed to sniff it and then take a little taste and then tell them it's acceptable, and they--
MURRAY SMITH: Exactly.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, there's a whole little ritual.
MURRAY SMITH: Rituals. And I've had students I would never forget this, Cody. This one young lady she raised her hand. And I can tell she was a bit embarrassed. But then she said, look, I'm going to ask because I don't know.
Why is it that I hear people say words like rare or medium well? Like what in the world does that mean? And I said, oh, well, I never-- it never crossed my mind to incorporate that into the training as it relates to table etiquette even if they are ordering a burger.
Do you want it medium rare, rare well done? And she said, what does that mean? And so it's these little things. And so I always tell students. First of all, whenever you go out to dinner and you want to try something new or to lunch or breakfast, always be adventurous when you aren't paying for it. [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: Aha.
MURRAY SMITH: If you're the guest of someone, try something new. Don't always order the chicken tenders. And this is adults too because I know adults who order the same thing. I want steak and potatoes. Try something different.
But if you don't know something, never be afraid to ask. And if you feel like you might be a little embarrassed and don't want the people that you're with to know that you don't know something, again, look it up online. I'm always encouraging students to take a peek at a website before they get there.
CODY GOUGH: But if you're ordering out of somebody else's bill and you don't like it, then you don't finish it, that's rude, right?
MURRAY SMITH: Well, here's the thing. Here's my opinion about that. Because I believe that whether it's you or your best friend or your mom who's paying for the dish, you should enjoy it. I would try a little-- now, I'm not saying do this every single time you go out. Oh, I don't like this. Can you please send this back.
I would say usually it's been my experience in the rule that when you try something and you are just really not enjoying it, whether it's overcooked or just the flavor profile just doesn't work for your palate, I would say be honest and say, I'm so sorry. This is just not what I expected. May I please try something else? Generally, restaurants will work with you because they want you to have a positive dining experience. However, I would not make this a habit.
CODY GOUGH: Sure.
MURRAY SMITH: After you've tried it once, take a couple of more bites because it might grow on you-- I actually-- which happens. In fact, I think, the number is it takes you like 27 times or something ridiculous to actually introduce something new into your palate and to enjoy it. So your taste buds go, oh, this is actually nice.
ASHLEY HAMER: We've talked about the mere exposure effect on the podcast before when talking about music, but it applies to food too. It describes the way that you'll find more familiar things to be more pleasant. Studies have shown that if people listen to the same unfamiliar song over and over, they report liking it more every time, for instance.
As far as flavor goes, researchers on a study from way back in 1982 gave people tropical fruit juices they had never tasted before. Some people tasted them five times, some 10, and some 20. Then they rated how much they liked the flavor.
Across the board, the more time someone tasted the juice, the better they liked it. So if you're not sure about an unfamiliar flavor, try it again and again and again. At some point, you'll probably come around.
MURRAY SMITH: But, of course, when you try something for the first time, it's like, OK, wait. Do I like this? Do I like the texture? Do I like the way this tastes? But I would avoid saying this-- using language like, this is nasty. I can't stand-- I hate this.
[LAUGHTER]
CODY GOUGH: Keep it positive.
MURRAY SMITH: I would say not really my cup of tea, or I really don't care for this. May I try something else is a better way of communicating it. Again, you don't-- life is not about us walking around being perfect and pretending like everything is going well. No, it's just the way you say it. It's how you say it.
CODY GOUGH: That's a good guideline. And you mentioned when people are being rude, we can always come up with a zillion examples of people being rude or unthoughtfull. I used to work at a coffee shop, and sometimes I would have an awful day. And I just got on the wrong side of the bed, didn't get enough sleep, whatever bad mood, and I still tried to treat customers very courteously and be respectful and things like that.
There are many others who are not able to maintain that on a daily basis. Someone, maybe your server, maybe your coffee shop barista, whoever it is, maybe they are just going through a breakup. Somebody is in the hospital. They're just having the worst time, and they start to kind of take it out on you. What's a good way to respond when you're on the receiving end of somebody being rude?
MURRAY SMITH: I hope your day gets better. [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: It's very nice.
MURRAY SMITH: I hope your day is up a little bit better or tomorrow be a new day.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: Tomorrow be a brand new day.
CODY GOUGH: That's very positive. So you really have to be--
MURRAY SMITH: You have to be positive because exactly what you just said, we're all going through different things. Now, I'm not saying that's a path for people to be rude at all because we're all going through different things. We could all have an excuse or reason to be kind of rude to folks.
Like, well, I had a disagreement with my husband before I got here. Because I'm thinking, what does that have to do with me? I just want some coffee and a smile.
[LAUGHTER]
Your issue has nothing to do with me. However, being thoughtful and considerate is understanding that we all are human beings, and we all are going through things at home, and we have different situations. Extending some compassion for one another is very important.
So if someone is being a little rude or snippy with you, meaning, a person who's providing a service for you and you're being positive, maybe you speak, good morning, and they're just like, hi, or they don't speak at all, I would not take that as an opportunity to say something rude or mean to kind of wake them up into realizing that you were trying to be polite. I would smile and say you just-- I hope you have a good day.
CODY GOUGH: Wow.
MURRAY SMITH: Someone has to be the bigger person. And if it's to the point where they're being extremely rude, well, then we need to maybe ask for a manager. And some consequences need to take place. So I'm not saying you ever need to engage in an argument, a big falling out with a person because of their behavior.
CODY GOUGH: Sure.
MURRAY SMITH: But there are little things that you could do. Like I said, maybe saying, I hope you have a better day. Or you can say what's the expression of how smiles are contagious.
And I'll go, where's your smile? I'm so silly. But, of course, everyone doesn't have a personality like mine. I'm a little silly. But just letting them know the day will get better.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: Or I don't know if you remember the scene from-- what movie is that? Oh, gosh. I think it's Monster-in-Law with Jennifer Lopez and Jane Fonda--
CODY GOUGH: I haven't seen it.
MURRAY SMITH: --where this guy is like-- they're at a coffee shop, and this guy is super rude. Like, I asked for non-fat. I can taste the fat. It's exactly what he says. I can taste the fat. And he's like, rude. She said, well, I'm so sorry. I can make it over.
Forget it. You've already ruined my day. And he storms off. But then he drops a $20. And Jennifer Lopez's character sees the encounter. She picks up the $20 and gives it to the young lady.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: And she says, karma.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: And so it's like if you're witnessing someone being treated badly, maybe you can do something to kind of wipe out that negative exchange by smiling and saying, you're doing a really good job.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: You're doing a great job.
CODY GOUGH: And people can be more proactive in general. I went to a coffee shop one time, and this woman went back to the counter and said, excuse me. Is this with almond milk or soy milk or whatever? And I think the barista wasn't sure. And she said, I specifically asked for this kind of milk. I can't have any lactose for blah, blah, blah.
And, OK, great. So the barista messed up the order and know it's not healthy for her. But you have to take some personal responsibility.
If it's that big of a deal and you can't touch any dairy, you need to be very explicit and say, hey, look, when you order it, I'm getting this. I need soy milk or almond milk or whatever. And I need it for a medical reason. So please make sure-- and then when you get the coffee you say, hey, and you made this with whatever, right? And then that's all you got to do.
MURRAY SMITH: Exactly.
CODY GOUGH: And if the barista messed it up and then at that point they say, oh, my gosh. I messed up.
MURRAY SMITH: People make mistakes.
CODY GOUGH: I've made 50,000 lattes today.
MURRAY SMITH: [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: And I've been there. You make so many. You start to kind of space out here and there. It's just going to happen.
MURRAY SMITH: It does.
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, so I'm taking a little bit of ownership. And I know we've been talking for a long time. We didn't even get into things, like visiting friends' parents for the first time.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh my God.
CODY GOUGH: Gifts, if you don't like my gift and returning that. I mean, we could talk all day about this stuff. But just to touch on it--
MURRAY SMITH: Of course.
CODY GOUGH: --you mentioned shopping for a gift for your friend. What do you do if you receive a gift you just really don't like?
MURRAY SMITH: I always say thank you.
[LAUGHTER]
I always write a thank you card for sure because you know what? That person didn't have to give me anything. I know it sounds cliche, and she's like, oh, it's the thought that counts. But it really does. Like in today's economy, a lot of people don't have that just extra money to just spend frivolously.
And so if someone took the time to select that hideous sweater for you for Christmas, you give them a hug and say thank you and wear the sweater at home or maybe only wear it when you see them. Or you don't wear it at all, but--
CODY GOUGH: Yeah, in this day and age, you can always--
MURRAY SMITH: Just say thank you. I just cannot stand ungrateful people usually because you do not-- that person does not have to think of you. You know I did not have to think of you.
Now, when it comes down to purchasing gift, being the gifter, the person who's buying the gift, I really-- unless I don't know that person well, I'm really not a fan of gift cards unless, for example, I have friends who are just obsessed with certain beverage shops. So if I give them a $25 gift card to that shop, they're going to be super pumped.
But other than that, I try to avoid gift cards and really try to think about what is this person really into? What do they enjoy? Do they enjoy reading? Do they enjoy perfume? Do they enjoy music, movies? Do they enjoy tours? I don't know.
I just have to think about who that person is as an individual and not just picking up a ton of give cards to say, OK, I got everyone a Christmas gift or Kwanzaa or whatever or a birthday gift off the checklist. No, let me actually put some thought into it.
Also, we go to different people's homes during that-- there are lots of parties, just holiday parties in general because of the season. And so, I think, sometimes people forget this. And especially up here, it's not so big.
Like I said, the South it's all about hospitality. And they're really big on rules of etiquette and making people feel comfortable and loved and appreciate it. The general rule is never show up to someone's home empty handed.
CODY GOUGH: Never.
MURRAY SMITH: Never. Even when my friends say, oh, don't bring anything. Just bring yourself. I go, OK. You're right. And I show up. I don't care if it's flowers for the host to shout, say thank you for hosting us.
If I know that my friend enjoys wine, I'll pick up a couple of bottles. If I know that they're going to have guests there who don't drink, I might get a couple of bottles of sparkling juice or cider because that's always nice because there's always that one person who may not really like wine or any other alcoholic beverage.
CODY GOUGH: Sure.
MURRAY SMITH: So just bringing something-- a box of chocolates, a candle, something for the host to enjoy.
CODY GOUGH: Those are great ideas.
MURRAY SMITH: Yes, to be nice--
CODY GOUGH: The only one I can think of is wine, and you're good-- the candles and ciders and chocolates.
MURRAY SMITH: Yes, letting them know that thank you. I really appreciate this. Now, if it's a-- say it's a potluck thanksgiving or maybe they say, you know what? We have every-- always ask.
OK, you're hosting thanksgiving. May I bring a side dish? May I bring a dessert? Dessert, I think, is always a nice touch because if I'm hosting thanksgiving, which I do, I don't expect for someone to bring a side of macaroni and cheese or a side of mashed potatoes--
CODY GOUGH: Mashed potatoes, yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: Like, if I'm hosting, I'm going to host, and I'll [INAUDIBLE] the entire meal ready. But dessert is always nice because I'm not a baker. But again, it's based on the person. You now this person as an individual.
Like, I have an aunt. She loves to bake. I wouldn't bring dessert. I wouldn't buy a pie or a cake to take to her house because I'm sure she'll have 10 pies and four cakes. So think about who this person is.
If you're the host, think about the people that you've invited, see if they have any diet-- in today's world, any dietary restrictions because you want all of your guests to be comfortable. And if you have overnight guests, say your in-laws are coming, little things, making sure that you have clean linen. Make sure the room that they're staying in is spotless, really nice and clean, fresh towels. Show them around because you might have weird things about your bathroom. Like in my parents' home, the light switch is outside of the bathroom.
CODY GOUGH: [INAUDIBLE] yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: So, yeah, just showing your guests, making sure there's water on the nightstand. If you're staying at someone's home, offer to pay for a meal. Take them out or offer gas money. These little, little things that show, I appreciate you. I appreciate you. That's the whole point of all of it. I appreciate you.
CODY GOUGH: The whole piece of this entire conversation.
MURRAY SMITH: I appreciate you.
CODY GOUGH: Well, thank you so much for all your expertise. At this point, I-- we mentioned time is so valuable.
MURRAY SMITH: Yes.
CODY GOUGH: And you just lent me so much of your time, which I do very much appreciate. I do want to wrap up with a final segment we do call the curiosity challenge. And I want to hopefully teach you something that you--
MURRAY SMITH: Please.
CODY GOUGH: --might not have known before. This is along the lines of etiquette, but it's a little sciencey.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh-oh, gosh.
CODY GOUGH: That's OK.
MURRAY SMITH: [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: This is something I learned on curiosity.com. Science actually will agree with something-- I'm sure you already know-- that double dipping is a party foul.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, my gosh. Huge, almost to the point where I don't even eat chips in dip when I'm out.
CODY GOUGH: Oh, wow.
MURRAY SMITH: Yeah. [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: Well, in 2016, a group of Clemson University researchers decided to see just how gross your friend's double dipping habit really is.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, my gosh, no.
CODY GOUGH: Now, salsa cheese dip and chocolate syrup all contained more bacteria after being double dipped. But the salsa got hit with the worst amount of additional bacteria. Can you tell me roughly how much more bacteria the double dipped salsa had than your average salsa?
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, my gosh. I don't even-- oh, that sounds horrible. You're not, oh, I'm never going to eat chips and salsa. OK, what I'm thinking maybe 60%, has 60% more bacteria than the salsa that hasn't been double dipped. [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: Good guess. The double dip salsa actually contains more than five times more bacteria when compared to the other sources. Now, it's worth noting that the salsa's high acidity brings the bacteria count down to meet the other dips levels after a couple of hours. And we all have bacteria anyway. That risk puts you at about the same amount of sharing a can of Coke or something with a friend.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, my gosh.
CODY GOUGH: But it is worth noting that there's just-- there's a scientific reason in addition to the etiquette of--
MURRAY SMITH: Do not double dip, people.
CODY GOUGH: [LAUGHS].
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, it drives me nuts.
[LAUGHTER]
CODY GOUGH: And I saw you pull out your phone. I believe you have a question for me.
MURRAY SMITH: Yes. I love music. When guests come, I'm always like blasting fun holiday songs. So tell me. I don't know if you are a '90s music fan. Mariah Carey and this group teamed up on a top 100 song in 1995.
It is a song that spent a record 16 weeks at the top hot 100. Who was the group that Mariah Carey partnered with, and what was the name of the song?
CODY GOUGH: My head jumps to All I want For Christmas Is You, but I don't even know if that was Mariah Carey.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, that is Mariah.
CODY GOUGH: OK, yeah.
MURRAY SMITH: Mhm. But this is not the song. She partnered with a group, a fabulous group from the '90s. And they're still around.
CODY GOUGH: Oh, man. I have no idea.
MURRAY SMITH: Boyz II Men
CODY GOUGH: Boyz II Men. Oh, that's right. What was the song?
MURRAY SMITH: One Sweet Day.
CODY GOUGH: One Sweet Day.
(SINGING) Sorry I never told you. [LAUGHS]
Do you have a side career in music? That was beautiful.
MURRAY SMITH: [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: That was really nice.
MURRAY SMITH: Oh, gosh. But, no, I love-- I could see the music video. Oh gosh, what are those? But I can see the music video in my mind of Mariah singing that beautiful song.
CODY GOUGH: 16 weeks at the top of the Billboard?
MURRAY SMITH: 16 weeks, yes.
CODY GOUGH: Wow.
MURRAY SMITH: [LAUGHS]
CODY GOUGH: That was a great piece of trivia.
MURRAY SMITH: Yay.
CODY GOUGH: A very good piece of trivia. Thanks again for being here.
MURRAY SMITH: Thank you.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
ASHLEY HAMER: I've got another dose of knowledge for you with today's extra credit question. Ready? There's a conversation technique commonly used by salespeople who want to quickly build relationships with new clients. It's called the FORD method. That's F-O-R-D. And each letter in the name stands for a good topic to use as a conversation starter. Can you name them?
I'll give you a head start. The first one is family. Stay tuned for the answer.
[MUSIC PLAYING]
CODY GOUGH: Do you like surveys? Well, I've got some really good news for you if you do. We want to hear your thoughts on the Curiosity Podcast. So we created a super quick and easy survey. Please visit curiosity.com/survey and answer a few questions so we can make our podcast better. Again, that's curiosity.com/survey.
It's quick and easy and will really help us bring you better content every week. There's a link in the show notes too. But one more time, that URL is curiosity.com/survey. We really appreciate the help.
ASHLEY HAMER: Explore history's surprising connections with a new podcast, The Thread with Aussie. It's like a cross between revisionist history and 6 degrees of separation. You'll discover how various historical strands are woven together to create a historic figure, a big idea, or an unthinkable tragedy, like how John Lennon's murder was actually 63 years in the making.
Witness how their stories hinge on the past and influence the future. The show is already a chart topper. Get The Thread with Ozy. That's O-Z-Y on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen.
Ready for your extra credit answer? These are the conversation starters named in the FORD method. F is for family. O is for occupation. R is for recreation. And D is for dreams. Next time you meet someone new, skip the small talk about the weather and try asking about one of those instead. Chances are you'll get to know them a lot better.
Thank you for listening to the Curiosity Podcast. I'd write a thank you card, but I probably don't have your mailing address.
CODY GOUGH: If you'd like to take your own etiquette to the next level, then please leave us a review on iTunes or email us at podcast@curiosity.com. We're always taking suggestions on future guests, by the way, or questions you have for us about past shows.
ASHLEY HAMER: For the Curiosity Podcast, I'm Ashley Hamer.
CODY GOUGH: And I'm Cody Gough. And, hey, next time you come and hit a record, can you bring a scented candle?
ASHLEY HAMER: Maybe just take out the trash.
[MUSIC PLAYING]